General End of Fiat ownership

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I am selling the Panda on Thursday for £6711 from Arnold Clark. No questions asked etc.

I literally cannot afford the repair costs, Its running with no EML but there are issues that make the car very low in power in 4th or 5th gear.


Some of the parts I've fitted in the last couple of weeks are now in the classified section. Namely:
Coil Pack and new leads used 4 days.
NGK Iridium Plugs, been in for 500 miles, as new.
The oil catch tank and hoses.

Also the Spacesaver and tool kit that is unused.


Been looking at a 2013 Citroen Picasso C3 with 2 year warranty.


Sorry to see the Panda go but I literally cannot afford the repair costs. The car is 9 months out of warranty.

 

[Goudrons]

Sorry but I can't help thinking "out of the frying pan, into the fire" when you mention a 8 years old Citroen, even with 2 years dealer/third party warranty.

Have you thought about something a bit simpler, that sold in millions with lots of cheap parts and good forums for all your help?
Perhaps a Fiesta or Corsa, want bigger what about a B Max or a Mervia?

Our lad has just bought a Fiesta and I can't believe I have a choice of every panel in the right colour, mint and used on ebay for silly money. I can even find an engine with low miles on it for less than a wet weekend in a caravan in Prestatyn!

Or what about a Toyota Yaris?
You might be pushing the budget for a hybrid. Though if it has full dealer service history they basically warranty the car at service for another 12 months. They'll also warranty the traction battery every year for 15 years.

A colleague has clocked over 100k in her 16 plate hybrid and it's still as tight as a drum, apart from normal service items all it's needed was a pair of rear wheel bearing at around 80k and she's getting close to 80 mpg out of it.

 

[Marcus Daly]

Been looking at a 2013 Citroen Picasso C3

Haven’t you suffered enough?

 

[AB100]

Seems a shame. The knock sensors are pretty basic stethoscopes I guess - like acoustic guitar pick-ups. Piezo.

Seems that either:

a) The knock sensor is faulty- maybe, though....
b) The ECU is faulty - seems unlikely if it essentially 'works' most the time
c) There is/was something wrong in the engine/fuel delivery and the knock is correctly sensing and the ECU retarding

Doesn't entirely explain the petrol smell unless an injector/fuel pipe is slightly leaking. That said, if FIAT have quoted then they must know. Right? They're not just guessing....

The £6700 seems a good price to me though, so fair enough.

 

[murphyv310]

The signal is there from the knock sensor but allegedly the ECU "thinks" it's knocking. They say it's not showing the EML due to a fault in the ecu. Unplugging the lambda or MAP doesn't put the light on and I've confirmed that.

 

[AB100]

The signal is there from the knock sensor but allegedly the ECU "thinks" it's knocking. They say it's not showing the EML due to a fault in the ecu. Unplugging the lambda or MAP doesn't put the light on and I've confirmed that.

Fair enough. You'd imagine it has to be ECU software somehow though right versus a physical electronic component and that they could flash the ECU. Wonder if these things are covered under the new 'right to repair' law.....


My suggestion. No ECU:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194203231121?hash=item2d376a2391:g:C0cAAOSwdq5gfGex

 

[Leroypanda]

so your selling a 3 and a bit year old and swapping it for a 8 year old for around £500 less?
personally if you dont need to use a car daily id save up for the repairs, or do it properly and buy something for sub 1500 quid. ( A 2010 panda maybe?)

 

[FiatMatt94]

so your selling a 3 and a bit year old and swapping it for a 8 year old for around £500 less?
personally if you dont need to use a car daily id save up for the repairs, or do it properly and buy something for sub 1500 quid. ( A 2010 panda maybe?)

I totally agree, I would rather get a 2010 panda for banger money than a 8 year old Citroen which would still be quite dear & which would also be worse on reliability terms than what you already have. The french don't really have a great track record for long term reliability.

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
The picasso I'm looking at is low mileage FSH rust free and has a warranty at £3100, not a £500 difference. It'll do in the meantime for me.

 

[jrkitching]

The picasso I'm looking at is low mileage FSH rust free and has a warranty at £3100, not a £500 difference. It'll do in the meantime for me.

For what it's worth, I think you're doing the right thing. I've been following your story, and if it were my Panda, I'd just want rid of it. They've thrown a lot of parts at it to not fix the problem, and I'd be concerned about collateral damage and the long term running costs of this particular car. TBH, I feel sorry for whoever buys it.

& which would also be worse on reliability terms than what you already have

This is a complete red herring. There's no way anyone can know how reliable this particular C3 will be, especially not without having even seen it.

However, what we do know is that the OP's current car is a total lemon, and their local Fiat dealer has a proven track record of being completely unable to even diagnose what's wrong with it, much less fix it. Selling it now and getting at least something back while it retains some value is probably the smartest thing he could do right now.

The french don't really have a great track record for long term reliability.

The most durable car I've ever owned was a Renault 5, bought new in 1989 and kept for 13 yrs/ 220,000 miles. Never had to touch the engine, clutch or gearbox beyond routine servicing. Still running well when I sold it. That said, a friend who bought an almost identical car at a similar time had nothing but trouble with it, and was well pleased to get at least something back when they traded it in after a couple of years.

I think a lot of it is down to the luck of the draw; sometimes you get a good one, sometimes you get a lemon. The trick is to work out quickly which one you have, and take the appropriate action. My own Panda has performed excellently for 11 yrs/100k miles and I've spent less than a tenner on unscheduled repairs; it's still running on all its original suspension, clutch, engine, gearbox, exhaust etc. It's been a great car and owes me nothing, but this doesn't mean all Pandas are great cars. I'd have ditched it very early if it had proven troublesome, but fortunately it turned out to be a keeper.

Sometimes the right thing to do is to just cut your losses and move on.

 

[murphyv310]

Thank you JRK.
I'm not exactly stupid with cars. The issue with the dealer here is they throw parts at cars and don't fix the issues. Both MES & Alfaobd came up with the - 40c off the temperature sensor but clearly it wasn't at fault as the ECU commanded a cold start with it unplugged, this would have been apparent with it connected. This gave me a suspicion early on there was an issue with the ECU.
Also the the ignition advance was at times ATDC totally incorrect, an overheated CAT was not reported back nor a light on. Strong evidence the ECU had some form of failure. I lashed out on plugs and was advised the coil pack was giving low output. All rubbish IMO and also the dealer says the compressions are low. I don't have a compression tester these days but it starts fine and idles fine hot or cold. I do think the CAT is fried as you do smell petrol from the exhaust.
The fault started suddenly, initially it did clear a couple of times but now its there constantly. It's not bad around town but ask it to overtake in 4th or 5th or climb a hill then expect a Citroen 2CV to be quicker than my sad little Panda.
I'll miss it as I liked it, seriously I cannot afford the fix. At least if I get a couple of years out of the Picasso I'll not feel robbed.

 

[FiatMatt94]

The most durable car I've ever owned was a Renault 5, bought new in 1989 and kept for 13 yrs/ 220,000 miles. Never had to touch the engine, clutch or gearbox beyond routine servicing. Still running well when I sold it. That said, a friend who bought an almost identical car at a similar time had nothing but trouble with it, and was well pleased to get at least something back when they traded it in after a couple of years.

I was talking more about the modern french cars, I agree the old ones such as Renault 5 & Peugeot 205 were good cars & reliable, even 106's. But I wouldn't touch anyone newer than them, my father is a mechanic & he also says that the old ones such as 5's & 205's were good but the modern ones are awful & everyone that I know who has had a modern french car got rid of them because they just kept going wrong. Also my sister had a 60 plate clio & it got scraped at 9 years old because it was just a constant money pit.

 

[jrkitching]

Also my sister had a 60 plate clio & it got scraped at 9 years old because it was just a constant money pit.

I always thought the 5 was a much better car than the Clio. Many times during that 13 years I was offered a 'great deal just for you, sir' to trade in the 5, but steadfastly resisted.

Modern cars are vastly more complex, particularly in the electronics department; there's a whole new additional skill set needed, and even the franchised dealers sometimes seem unable to cope.

My advice to anyone seeking to run an older car on a tight budget is to keep things as simple as possible and avoid models with a surfeit of fancy gadgetry. Choosing a popular model with a strong aftermarket spares availability helps, too.

 

[FiatMatt94]

I always thought the 5 was a much better car than the Clio. Many times during that 13 years I was offered a 'great deal just for you, sir' to trade in the 5, but steadfastly resisted.

Modern cars are vastly more complex, particularly in the electronics department; there's a whole new additional skill set needed, and even the franchised dealers sometimes seem unable to cope.

My advice to anyone seeking to run an older car on a tight budget is to keep things as simple as possible and avoid models with a surfeit of fancy gadgetry. Choosing a popular model with a strong aftermarket spares availability helps, too.

The 5 was a much better car, I agree about keeping things simple when running older car, I ran a 1988 Mini 1000 as a daily driver for 4 years & 50k, with the strong spares avalibility I was able to keep it going mechanically, It's only off the road now as it needs a full body restoration & a faulty gearbox.

 

[murphyv310]

Of two Picasso's I looked at an earlier one was actually a better deal.
It was 50,000 miles, the lower spec with less gadgetry, MOTd on the 24th June by the previous owner, FSH, Mint bodywork with not a scratch.
The 2013 model is an elegance variant 1.6Vti engine with 77,000 on the clock and semi auto 6 speed. It though had a small dent, skuffs on the bumper, cracks on the grill and some scratches. I'm leaning to the older car that's 10 years old but very cheap, it's a minter inside and out. The engine has a chain driven cam, the 2011 engine was as smooth as silk but the later a little tappy when cold.
To be fair all I need is a run around right now, next year our finances will improve and we will most likely buy a much newer car and even possibly another Fiat.....who knows.

 

[Goudrons]

I'm not exactly stupid with cars. The issue with the dealer here is they throw parts at cars and don't fix the issues.

This is how dealers "fix" them these days.
A lot of their work outside servicing is warranty work, so it's good business to keep replacing parts in hope of fixing a fault and billing the manufacturer.

Trouble starts outside the warranty, they often don't have the skills to pinpoint faults and rely on what the computer tells them and a warehouse full of spares at your cost.

I'm not down on French cars, I have had a few and currently drive one, though it's still got 4 years left of it's 5 year warranty (not sure I'll keep it much longer after that though).

The point I was trying to make is one wouldn't be my choice if finances were tight.
Although they tend to sell them fairly cheap, parts tend to be fairly expensive and as for the 6 speed semi auto (EGS), run for the hills!!

I had this 'box in a Berlingo (I inherited) and it was truly awful.
Really jerky in the lower gears unless you anticipate the changes and backed the gas off a bit when it changed.

They don't creep, so reversing, parking and other slow maneuvers are a real battle, repeatedly prodding the throttle to get it moving and then slamming on the anchors before you hit something is pretty unnerving it tight spaces and in tight car parks it's pretty much demolition derby!

To add insult to injury, just when you get it moving slow enough to maneuver, it decides it's coming to a stop so slams the clutch down again and you start all over again.

The trick is to hold it back on the brakes and rev it hard enough to stop it declutching, so driving it two footed, one on the brake and one on the gas.
After a while you start thinking whats the point, it's twice as hard as a manual!

The CSC started to leak which is common when the seals get on a bit and as the thing runs pretty much all the time with the clutch down, in gear when you're stopped and the hammer from slow maneuvers, the CSC gives up.

I took it to my local and trusted gearbox specialist and he refused the work and told me he was "doing me a favour".
The hydraulic parts were very hard to come by and very expensive. There's just no way of bleeding the system out and the gearbox's brain needed resetting for the clutch biting point.

I tried a few other gearbox specialist, a few Citroen specialists and a couple of dealers and they all told me the same thing, they don't repair them, they just swap the unit out complete at almost double what the car was worth.

 

[murphyv310]

Hi
I did drive the car with the semi automatic transmission and I didn't like it one little bit. Checking on the MOT history for the older one there is only one fail for poor windscreen washer aim that was sorted on the same day. Not bad for a 10 year old car. From its condition its been looked after. Its cheap, has a warranty and will do for a year when we know that our income will rise.
So please less of the negativity. Some cars never give trouble others do. It's just how things pan out in life. My plan was to keep the Panda for a long time but right now I cannot afford another big payout right now.
Dont worry I'll still contribute and may buy another Fiat in a years time.
Take care.

 

[Officina red]

I’ve worked in many houses where people have gotten rid of very unreliable cars, fiats,citroens,renaults,Peugeot’s,Vauxhall’s, and in my case a Ford, every one of them bought Japanese cars, including me I bought a Nissan (before they joined with Renault) I’m not out to knock the Citroen you’re looking at, but I would consider a Toyota with the 10 year warranty deal, you could buy a 7 year old Yaris/auris, get it serviced and have up to 3 years makers warranty left.
Worth a thought.

 

[FiatMatt94]

When I started working as a dustman about 3 years ago one of the blokes I used to work with had a 13 plate Yaris so about 5 years old at the time with 100K & apart from routine maintenance & servicing it didn't cost him anything, the job I had before that a woman I worked with had an original Yaris which was actually a very nice little car, a bit weird looking but went realy well & very comfy. If I wasn't into Fiats I would probably have one of them.

 

[murphyv310]

Hi.
Well I've seen under the bonnet of a Yaris belonging to a friends mother. It had what they thought was a blowing exhaust. No such luck the paper thin exhaust manifold was holed, to thin to weld so a new manifold was required at a fair chunk of money.
Japanese cars are relatively reliable but when they do fail dig deep, parts are not cheap.