Technical Ducato 3.0 JTD What is this port for?

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Technical Ducato 3.0 JTD What is this port for?

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Hello everyone.
I have a Ducato based motorhome. 2009 3.0 jtd manual 60k


I have been chasing a random misfire/engine judder for a couple of years now.
I have ruled out all the normal things but I am puzzled by one thing relating to the thermostat housing.
The problems started when a thermostat was fitted. There was no thermostat in the housing from new.
In the attached picture of a cylinder head, what is the highlighted hole for and should it be full of carbon?

The hole is blanked off by the thermostat housing, and the water gallery is the hole above .
thermostat.jpg


s-l1600.jpg
 
Last edited:
Hi

As you say, the thermostat housing is clearly designed to blank off this hole. I suspect that it communicates with the inlet manifold, and will be full of carbon due to it being a "backwater" with no through flow. Also, the manifold carbon buildup may be more than usual in your engine if it has been run without a thermostat, as it will have been over-cooled to some extent for the whole time it has been running without one. Carbon/oil mostly condenses out from the recirculated exhaust gas when the EGR system is in operation. Why Fiat put a hole there can only be guessed at. Maybe for a sensor of some sort that was superseded ?

If you remove the throttle body from the top of the intake manifold (mind you don't shear off the bolts, stop if it looks corroded or they are very tight !) you will be able to look into the manifold and judge the carbon buildup. I suspect the passages are generously sized so a bit of deposit doesn't matter, but if it is seriously coked up you might want to remove it and get it cleaned out.

I'd recommend fitting the thermostat housing with a proper factory style solid gasket rather than silicone sealant which can break off and get lodged in the cooling system. Also, there is a small possibility that the gasket thickness will affect the thermostat operation.

I don't know the cause of your misfire. I would be inclined to carefully check over the ECU to injector wiring and connections (8 wires). Also, check fuses F17 and F22 that supply the ECU to make sure their connections are bright clean. Are any fault codes logged ?
 
Hi

As you say, the thermostat housing is clearly designed to blank off this hole. I suspect that it communicates with the inlet manifold, and will be full of carbon due to it being a "backwater" with no through flow. Also, the manifold carbon buildup may be more than usual in your engine if it has been run without a thermostat, as it will have been over-cooled to some extent for the whole time it has been running without one. Carbon/oil mostly condenses out from the recirculated exhaust gas when the EGR system is in operation. Why Fiat put a hole there can only be guessed at. Maybe for a sensor of some sort that was superseded ?

If you remove the throttle body from the top of the intake manifold (mind you don't shear off the bolts, stop if it looks corroded or they are very tight !) you will be able to look into the manifold and judge the carbon buildup. I suspect the passages are generously sized so a bit of deposit doesn't matter, but if it is seriously coked up you might want to remove it and get it cleaned out.

I'd recommend fitting the thermostat housing with a proper factory style solid gasket rather than silicone sealant which can break off and get lodged in the cooling system. Also, there is a small possibility that the gasket thickness will affect the thermostat operation.

I don't know the cause of your misfire. I would be inclined to carefully check over the ECU to injector wiring and connections (8 wires). Also, check fuses F17 and F22 that supply the ECU to make sure their connections are bright clean. Are any fault codes logged ?
Thank you for this information, it is very helpful. especially the information regarding the loom and fuses. I was thinking of removing the thermostat as a last resort but that is defeatist.

The problem is quite random. I could drive for 3 hours and nothing happens, then it will start to judder. It is more noticeable in 6th gear.
The engine hesitates for probably 1 or 2 seconds causing a noticeable judder then ok for a while. It usually does this 4 or 5 times in close succession then it will be fine for quite some time.

The reason I wanted to know what the hole was for is because this only happened after a thermostat was fitted. I suspected water was getting into this hole in very small amounts causing an upset in boost pressure or something similar. I did replace the thermostat housing and fitted a new metal gasket without any sealant but it did not improve. Also I don't have any coolant loss.

Over the course of the problem, the following has been done:

1. New ECU (sent off for testing but they broke it so they payed for a new one)
2. MAP Sensor
3. Maf Sensor
4. EGR Valve
5. Cam Sensor
6. Crank Sensor
7. 4 new injectors (not reconditioned)
8. Throttle body
9 Inlet manifold gasket . Manifold probably cleaned then

It never stores a fault code and several garages have spent hours looking for the fault.
I replaced most of the parts myself, including the injectors which I coded after fitting.

I will be checking the fuses first as this is the easiest one to do.
Regarding the injector loom, am I just checking the wires back from the injectors to the ECU by removing the insulation and looking for any anomalies?

Best regards

Chris
 
Hi

Phew, that's a pretty comprehensive list of replacements.

The rather random nature of the fault does suggest an intermittent electrical problem. As I'm sure you know, each injector has a flow and return wire to the ECU. Apart from checking the connections each end for tightness and lack of tarnish, you could check the continuity of each one with the ends removed. The easiest way is to use an ohmmeter with croc clips to keep your hands free, and set it to audible tone for continuity. Then poke, flex and twist the loom to make sure the beep sound does not falter. Also, use your eyes to check for any chafing damage where the loom is tied in place. You may find nothing amiss, but it's a process of elimination.

The reason for recommending the fuse check is that the ECU supplies the injectors, so it has a pulsed demand for high current. If the supply to the ECU has a slightly high resistance from a bad contact like a fuseholder then you can get a varying voltage drop. The ECU is fairly tolerant of this (it is internally regulated down from 12 volts to 5 volts) but if the supply volts seen by the ECU dips too low it will play up.

The lack of fault codes is a puzzle, so the other possibility is some interruption of the fuel supply. This would fit in with power loss for a second or two rather than a very brief jerk/"misfire".

The only other thing I can think of is that if the ECU detects that the footbrake is being applied at the same time as you have your foot on the throttle, it will deliberately cut power. The brake light switch has two sets of contacts, one for the lights and one to signal to the ECU. A bit of a long shot but worth checking that the contacts are doing their job and the switch isn't coming on when it shouldn't be.

Good luck with your investigations.
 

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Hi

Phew, that's a pretty comprehensive list of replacements.

The rather random nature of the fault does suggest an intermittent electrical problem. As I'm sure you know, each injector has a flow and return wire to the ECU. Apart from checking the connections each end for tightness and lack of tarnish, you could check the continuity of each one with the ends removed. The easiest way is to use an ohmmeter with croc clips to keep your hands free, and set it to audible tone for continuity. Then poke, flex and twist the loom to make sure the beep sound does not falter. Also, use your eyes to check for any chafing damage where the loom is tied in place. You may find nothing amiss, but it's a process of elimination.

The reason for recommending the fuse check is that the ECU supplies the injectors, so it has a pulsed demand for high current. If the supply to the ECU has a slightly high resistance from a bad contact like a fuseholder then you can get a varying voltage drop. The ECU is fairly tolerant of this (it is internally regulated down from 12 volts to 5 volts) but if the supply volts seen by the ECU dips too low it will play up.

The lack of fault codes is a puzzle, so the other possibility is some interruption of the fuel supply. This would fit in with power loss for a second or two rather than a very brief jerk/"misfire".

The only other thing I can think of is that if the ECU detects that the footbrake is being applied at the same time as you have your foot on the throttle, it will deliberately cut power. The brake light switch has two sets of contacts, one for the lights and one to signal to the ECU. A bit of a long shot but worth checking that the contacts are doing their job and the switch isn't coming on when it shouldn't be.

Hi

As you say, the thermostat housing is clearly designed to blank off this hole. I suspect that it communicates with the inlet manifold, and will be full of carbon due to it being a "backwater" with no through flow. Also, the manifold carbon buildup may be more than usual in your engine if it has been run without a thermostat, as it will have been over-cooled to some extent for the whole time it has been running without one. Carbon/oil mostly condenses out from the recirculated exhaust gas when the EGR system is in operation. Why Fiat put a hole there can only be guessed at. Maybe for a sensor of some sort that was superseded ?

If you remove the throttle body from the top of the intake manifold (mind you don't shear off the bolts, stop if it looks corroded or they are very tight !) you will be able to look into the manifold and judge the carbon buildup. I suspect the passages are generously sized so a bit of deposit doesn't matter, but if it is seriously coked up you might want to remove it and get it cleaned out.

I'd recommend fitting the thermostat housing with a proper factory style solid gasket rather than silicone sealant which can break off and get lodged in the cooling system. Also, there is a small possibility that the gasket thickness will affect the thermostat operation.

I don't know the cause of your misfire. I would be inclined to carefully check over the ECU to injector wiring and connections (8 wires). Also, check fuses F17 and F22 that supply the ECU to make sure their connections are bright clean. Are any fault codes logged ?
Hello Anthony.

We have just returned from a 600 mile round trip to Scotland.
In preparation, I checked the fuses you mentioned . Both were badly tarnished, not corroded.
I cleaned them up and replaced them. I had no time to check the loom to the injectors so off we went.

I would have expected the problem to have occurred several times in that sort of time but, NOTHING.........
If this turns out to be the cause of the problem I will be overjoyed to say the least.
I will let you know if it happens again or its fixed for good.
Might as well take all the fuses out and give them a clean.

Thanks again,
Chris
 
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