Tuning Ducato 2.8 IDTD turbo removal/ increased boost

[totto]

I have a 1999 Ducato cargo van or whatever the english term would be.. with a 2.8 idTD engine.. anyway, i'm in the process of fixing a broken turbo wastegate link (The small tap on the wastegate valve linkage arm, which seems to be spotwelded on the arm, broke off leaving me with an open valve and no boost at all).

My first question is - is it possible to remove the entire turbo from the car without lifting out the entire engine? I've been underneath looking at the area, and i can't see all the bolts and nust, but does anyone have experience enough to tell me i it's doable? (mechanical experience at near professional level).

Question number two: After hopfully fixing the turbo, i'm planning on installing a leak-valve on the pressure-house - wastegate-line to be able to adjust boost from within the car..
Does anybody have knowledge of how much boost this car should have originally, and how much extra it can take within reasonable safe limits?
There is not much missing, but it needs a tiny little extra when driving up the steep undersea tunnels in my area....)
Appreciate all inputs

Lagre
Lagre
Lagre
Lagre​

 

[corcai]

Its doable from underneath, its best to raise the van so you have enough room to manoeuvre your arms. Wire brush and use 6 sided sockets on the exhaust nuts , 12 sided usually rounds them off and have a nut splitter on hand if they are badly corroded. You may need a ring spanner for one of the nuts if you can't reach it with a socket, again preferably a 6 sided one.

When you remove the oil feed banjo be sure you don't lose the copper washers the bottom one has a habit of flying off when you remove the banjo bolt.

In terms of increasing the boost. The stock boost would be 1 bar afaik, turbo life expectancy falls exponentially with increased pressure. 1.1 bar is probably fine. I would not go past 1.2 bar.

 

[totto]

Probably my fault not asking properly, but are you thinking relative or absolute boost...
Today, with the wastegate only blocked by a weak spring, i can get 0.15 bar relative boost, i.e. 1,15 absolute...
And that is waaay to low.. it lacks at least 20-30 hp from when it was sound...

Berfore i realized what had gone wrong, i tested the wastegate acutator with an airpump, and it opened at 1 bar relative pressure...

 

[totto]

For those with interest of the aftermath...

As previous explained, i had a failure in the wastegate actuator link... Leading me to believe i had to remove the entire turbo from the car in order to fix it properly.

As adviced in an earlier reply, i took on the job expecting a very difficult job due to the turpo's placement behind the engine, and the fact that i was going to dismantle the turbo from the manifold with expected rusty and stuck nuts.

i removed the front exhaust pipe to make eaiser access to the turbo, and then removed the inlet tube and wastegate actuator from above through theengine compartment.
I then proceeded to remove the exhaust outlet bend to gain access to one more of the turbo-manifold-nuts.

This gave me as good access as could be exptected:

Due to the better access and visibility, i could confirm that the little bolt on the wastegate arm was in fact NOT welded on as earlier assumed, but riveted on.
This in turn made me realize that i might not have to remove the entire turbo...
With a dremel and a small grinding-ball i managed to grind of the remains of the little bolt, and then with a modified plier i managed to press out the remaininglower part of the bolt:
(The bolt at the left in the picture, i planned to use a small commercial ball-link to replace the link, but wasn't able to use it...)

With access to the arm and the old part removed, it looked like this:

Then i looked throughan old nuts'n-bolt-box i had plus purchased some 4mm hex bolts and some nuts and washers to replace the broken bolt.

Put together:

After remounting the wastegate actuator and checking the operation with a air-pump, it was just a matter of remounting the rest of the parts before testdriving.
The car now has a healthy 1,2 bar relative pressure (2,2 absolute) at peak,
And runs like never before!

​

Lagre
Lagre
Lagre​

 

[totto]

Update: After a 400 km trip to and from my mountain cabin, the car still runs like it should - and climbing hills in 5'th gear like never before.
Chekced the turbo repair (and tightened the alternator belt) and went for another 600+ km trip to Oslo this week with notiung to note other than a little rattling sound i suspect comes from the front mount of the front exhaust tube..
All in all it seems like success

 

[jackwhoo]

That's great , thank you for posting and very good pictures.

 

[sergiy1983]

fiat ducato 2.8 idtd 1999
Say how many xx mbar should westgate? And how many xx mbar should be inflate after an intercooler?

 

[goggs]

Don't you all wish repair threads were as informative as this. Final result too and no give in and give to garage.
First class job...

 

[sergiy1983]

То що має відкриватися при 1.2мбар?

 

[BigTed666]

Don't you all wish repair threads were as informative as this. Final result too and no give in and give to garage.
First class job...

Massive thanks for this post and the pictures, I've just had the same thing happen to mine. Now I know what to do, A garage told me I needed a complete new turbo.

 

[royblom]

Hello Folks,

I drive a 2.8 idtd from the year 2001.
Camper with 4500kg.

I made some adjustmends to increase the power.
What we did is change the piston and the membrame, adjusted the bolt below with one full turn so the gas reacts better en we adjusted the waste gate.

But now... i think i have to much pressure, when i am accelerating at full gas in first second and thirth gear the max pressure is 1.32, i think thats to much?

What would be the limit fot this engine turbo pressure?

Excuse my english typing. hope to hear from you guys.

regards

 

[rolandbrindley]

There is almost no limit to the turbo boost a diesel engine can stand. After all you are not injecting any more diesel, just more air to get a more complete burning cycle. It's only when you start opening up the injector pump that you may get trouble.

 

[royblom]

Thnxs, sow the 1.3 now should be no trouble as i did not turn op the pump?

 

[corcai]

The 2.8 may have come with garret, 3k or mitsubishi turbo which one is yours?

There is almost no limit to the turbo boost a diesel engine can stand.

There is a limit to the boost that the turbo and can handle long term though.

After all you are not injecting any more diesel, just more air to get a more complete burning cycle.

Not necessarily the idtd has a boost driven diapragm LDA that increases the injected quantity in proportion to the boost so unless the LDA pin was already maxing out (it wasn't based on ops description) it is injecting more diesel.

 

[royblom]

dont know witch type..

whats the max on both of them?

 

[rolandbrindley]

Engine makers always try to approach the earlier 'free floating' ideal, where there is no wastegate and the maximum turbo boost when the engine is working in mid-range rpm combines with maximum fuel injected to give maximum power.

The injector pump has a fixed piston travel and the rack cuts injection off corresponding to throttle position and governor settings. Rotary pumps have internal means to achieve the same control. So you can't get any more diesel in there no matter how much you allow the boost to rise. The rpm governor (when present) is there to shut things down when revs exceed the limit.

Boost is proportional to exhaust gas temperature and therefore gas volume, so is directly related to the fuel burned, no wastegate or connection between manifold and pump can change that, it's gas dynamics, and you can't get something for nothing.

The wastegate idea helps makers to suit one turbo to many engines, it simplifies the matching process. It helps them to sell a vehicle at several HP ratings like Volvo with their 380/420/460/480/500 hp F12s, all the same engine just the pump settings altered. They can use the same turbo knowing it will work adequately at several ratings. The earlier F10 had no wastegate, it was free floating, exactly matched for gas flows to the injector pump and therefore exhaust gas temperature, and it made the better engine.

So I would say that most diesels of the Ducato type will stand higher boost because you can't get it much higher, it is related to a fixed limit, the capacity of the pumping cylinder inside the injector pump.

 

[royblom]

super, it runs great, took her out this weekend. Max speed was 110kmp.,now 130kmph.
Acc and the overal driving is a great change!
fuel consumption is also lower now... dont understeant how that coult happen but super!

 

[Panda2007]

This is a rather old thread now but it still seems the right place to ask about this. I have a 1999 2.8idTD in a Motorhome which I sold a few years ago and then purchased back last year. Back in about 2012 I purchased cruise control but it was not very successful, the high 5th would not sustain on even modest hills and the Cruise would kick out.

After buying it back I can be in cruise all day! I asked what he had done, well not himself, and all he could tell me was it was something to do with a spring. The man who did it made a change, drove a test, said something like, "I think it can handle a bit more" and made a 2nd change.

I don't know if the change was to the cruise control but think it might have been something on the engine. Does this ring any bells? Thanks

BTW asking because the MOT is Monday!

 

[DodiDevito]

For those with interest of the aftermath...

As previous explained, i had a failure in the wastegate actuator link... Leading me to believe i had to remove the entire turbo from the car in order to fix it properly.

As adviced in an earlier reply, i took on the job expecting a very difficult job due to the turpo's placement behind the engine, and the fact that i was going to dismantle the turbo from the manifold with expected rusty and stuck nuts.

i removed the front exhaust pipe to make eaiser access to the turbo, and then removed the inlet tube and wastegate actuator from above through theengine compartment.
I then proceeded to remove the exhaust outlet bend to gain access to one more of the turbo-manifold-nuts.

This gave me as good access as could be exptected:

Due to the better access and visibility, i could confirm that the little bolt on the wastegate arm was in fact NOT welded on as earlier assumed, but riveted on.
This in turn made me realize that i might not have to remove the entire turbo...
With a dremel and a small grinding-ball i managed to grind of the remains of the little bolt, and then with a modified plier i managed to press out the remaininglower part of the bolt:
(The bolt at the left in the picture, i planned to use a small commercial ball-link to replace the link, but wasn't able to use it...)

​

With access to the arm and the old part removed, it looked like this:

Then i looked throughan old nuts'n-bolt-box i had plus purchased some 4mm hex bolts and some nuts and washers to replace the broken bolt.

Put together:

After remounting the wastegate actuator and checking the operation with a air-pump, it was just a matter of remounting the rest of the parts before testdriving.
The car now has a healthy 1,2 bar relative pressure (2,2 absolute) at peak,
And runs like never before!

​

Lagre
Lagre
Lagre​

Dear Totto,
I wanted to say a big Thanks for the time & effort you put into this post!!!!!
We returned from a 5.000km Norway trip this summer and our 2.8 IDTD Ducato RV had no power in the end. The trip back was a nightmare.
The local FIAT Workshop looked at the engine and pointed to the Diesel pump, said they could not do it and send us away.
After some climbing under the car I discovered the broken Wastegate Splint.

Your post & pictures encouraged me to give it a try and after some hours with the Dremel and some fine-tuning, the old lady is running like never before.

A BIG THANKS, SIR! Best regards from Munich.
Dominik