General Diesel Clutch Help !!

[Bellyh16]

Hi all, looking for some advice on my Fiat Ducato 2.3 130 Multijet clutch issue.

The van originally had a new clutch and slave cylinder fitted with the gearbox out. Since then I’ve had an ongoing problem where the clutch pedal/bite point is fine for a day or two, then the bite point seems to disappear or drop again.

It has now been back to the garage four times. Since the original clutch job they have changed/checked the clutch master cylinder, hydraulic parts and bled it multiple times, but the issue keeps coming back after a couple of days of driving.

They have not removed the gearbox again since the original clutch replacement.

Has anyone had this on a Ducato/Boxer/Relay?

I’m trying to work out what to ask the garage to check next before it just keeps going round in circles. Any advice or similar experiences would be appreciated.

 

[rayc]

Does the pedal drop to the floor with no resistance?

 

[Bellyh16]

No just bite point gradually sinks until the point where clutch wont disengage

 

[Mike1alike]

Is the clutch fluid leaking somewhere?

 

[Berniej]

I have a similar problem and was about to start a new post when I saw yours so thought I'd add to it - hope that's OK. Mine is OK when cold and stood for a while but after driving for a while the bite point gets lower and lower until it will barely disengage. Sometimes the pedal stays dropped and has to be pulled up by toe! After stopping and waiting an hour or so it recovers to what feels like normal again. The cycle continues. There's no sign of fluid loss, master cylinder appears clean and dry. I'd assumed that it must be the slave and getting ready to take to a garage for an expensive repair but if you've had your clutch and slave changed recently maybe that's not necessarily the cause (unless there was a problem with your replacement parts or the fitting??)

 

[Jonrunsee]

Hi all, looking for some advice on my Fiat Ducato 2.3 130 Multijet clutch issue.

The van originally had a new clutch and slave cylinder fitted with the gearbox out. Since then I’ve had an ongoing problem where the clutch pedal/bite point is fine for a day or two, then the bite point seems to disappear or drop again.

It has now been back to the garage four times. Since the original clutch job they have changed/checked the clutch master cylinder, hydraulic parts and bled it multiple times, but the issue keeps coming back after a couple of days of driving.

They have not removed the gearbox again since the original clutch replacement.

Has anyone had this on a Ducato/Boxer/Relay?

I’m trying to work out what to ask the garage to check next before it just keeps going round in circles. Any advice or similar experiences would be appreciated.

Me too!
Sat in a campsite near Saumur, beautiful hot weather with a clutch pedal that goes almost to the floor without allowing gears to be engaged, no oil leaks apparent, no drop in fluid level, it’s been happening for several days, I’ve been limiting clutch use, just moving off and then matching speed revs and gear changes which has been fairly successful, smooth changes. I have contacted a garage in Saumur and they can get a master cylinder, I figured this is the easiest to change first, because of the language difference, they are calling it a transmission cylinder, which makes sense, I have used the ePER for parts numbers but it would be good if someone with experience could confirm for me if it is correct, are there many different versions for the gen three?
Not stressed yet!!! Just don’t tell the wife

 

[Jonrunsee]

I have a similar problem and was about to start a new post when I saw yours so thought I'd add to it - hope that's OK. Mine is OK when cold and stood for a while but after driving for a while the bite point gets lower and lower until it will barely disengage. Sometimes the pedal stays dropped and has to be pulled up by toe! After stopping and waiting an hour or so it recovers to what feels like normal again. The cycle continues. There's no sign of fluid loss, master cylinder appears clean and dry. I'd assumed that it must be the slave and getting ready to take to a garage for an expensive repair but if you've had your clutch and slave changed recently maybe that's not necessarily the cause (unless there was a problem with your replacement parts or the fitting??)

I had the same issue, just bled mine and feels better so far, we’re still on the campsite so will see when the time come to move

 

[bugsymike]

Generally if no fluid loss at all, then usually master cylinder pressure seal at fault, it seems more common with modern plastic master cylinders.
Another symptom is if you hold the pedal down for a length of time, say prolonged at a junction and still in gear, it can cause engine to stall as though you had lifted your foot back off the pedal when you haven't, this is caused by the fluid escaping past the pressure seal and back into the reservoir.
If you watch very carefully, when you press the clutch pedal to the floor, the reservoir level will drop a small amount as it feeds the master cylinder, however if master cylinder at fault then the level will start to return in the reservoir even though the pedal has not been released. You do need to watch very carefully to see this.
If you bleed system and note air at master cylinder , this is usually caused by the back seal in the cylinder, the one nearest to the pedal as opposed to the pressure seal which does the main work.
Another point to check is a small amount of freeplay should be noticeable at the clutch pedal before main pressure, maybe only a couple of mm. If nothing then check and clutch sensor switches or cable/wiring etc. is not stopping the pedal from coming right back to it's off position.
Generally if slave cylinder fails then the level in the reservoir will go down due to the slave cylinder leaking. On a modern "concentric" clutch slave cylinder to change it, involves removing the gearbox. You may see fluid dripping from bell housing in extreme cases and where you have had to top up the reservoir. I much prefer external clutch slave cylinders as less labour intensive to replace than a gearbox out job!
Less common these days is for the outer seal on the master cylinder to leak, this would cause the reservoir level to drop, but usually doesn't affect clutch operation unless level gets too low.
The other symptom of that used to be the clutch pedal rubber falling off the pedal and your foot slipping.

 

[Jonrunsee]

Thanks for the detailed description, it’s alway good to get an comprehensive overview of a system, I did see a post where someone had said it was better to draw fluid through with a syringe than pump it through with the pedal, I did try this but just seem to draw air. (I wonder if air was being drawn in by the fitting that is opened when the R clip is removed) The best result I had was by using the syringe to push fluid through and up into the reservoir. Pumping didn’t seem to be as effective, maybe this is as a consequence of a passing seal? It was hard to see if the reservoir was going up and down when the clutch was being pressed.

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for the detailed description, it’s alway good to get an comprehensive overview of a system, I did see a post where someone had said it was better to draw fluid through with a syringe than pump it through with the pedal, I did try this but just seem to draw air. (I wonder if air was being drawn in by the fitting that is opened when the R clip is removed) The best result I had was by using the syringe to push fluid through and up into the reservoir. Pumping didn’t seem to be as effective, maybe this is as a consequence of a passing seal? It was hard to see if the reservoir was going up and down when the clutch was being pressed.

I have bled systems simply by removing the bleed valve and kept topping up the master cylinder on many vehicles if on my own. Just don't let them run out.
If a master cylinder seals are weak then vacuum bleeding makes it worse by dragging air past the back seal in the master cylinder, so pressure bleeding is actually better for that.
I have actually bench bled a brand new dual circuit brake master cylinder, then fitted it, left the outlet pipes slightly loose and kept topping it up then tightened the unions after air bubbles stopped coming out and had a perfect brake without bleeding at the wheels.
Years ago on some Hillman Hunters they had a large bore clear plastic clutch pipe down to the slave cylinder and you could see the air bubbles going back and forth as you tried to bleed them and the pedal would be terrible, but if left for a few hours the air bubbles would rise up in the master cylinder and bleed out themselves.
Never vigorously pump the pedal as it only creates smaller air bubbles that are impossible to remove.
Also if you have an assistant, make sure they are listening and do what they are asked, my ex wives were useless, but a 12 year old daughters were great.
I have used a cheap pressure bleed system that uses an adaptor from a spare tyre to a reservoir of brake fluid screwed firmly to the normal reservoir top so no air leaks, then you simply release a bleed nipple and run the fluid until air bubble free.
Note it is important not to exceed 20psi so make sure tyre pressure is low as it will damage the hydraulic seals otherwise. You do need plenty of correct brake fluid though.
Many years ago we had a customer with an expensive Rover who thought he would top up his levels under the bonnet and used engine oil in the brake cylinder,he destroyed all the seals.