Technical Car judders over 40mph and then drives smooth over 55mph

[RedBP2004]

We have a Fiat 500 1.2 Stop/Go Lounge manufactured in 2013. We purchased it second hand in October 2014 with about 9K miles on the clock from Piccadilly Cars in Manchester. Unfortunately, I didn't realise it had been a cat D vehicle on the advert until it was too late. I didn't know cat a to D existed. I was assured by the garage that Fiat would honour the warranty as long as it isn't a part that has been replaced and that all parts that were replaced were purchased from Fiat. We had a few glitches all rectified after a few arguments. The car then drove fine.

I drove the car 7 months later to the dealer via the motorway for a warranty recall notice and noticed that the car judders over 40mph and then drives smooth when it passes over 52/55mph. The whole car judders. My wife who mainly drives the car only does city driving and didn't notice the juddering as she rarely drives above 30mph. Apart from this juddering the car handles/drives good, brakes quickly and feels like a nearly new car should do.

To solve the problem we have had 4 new tyres, all wheels balanced, tracking adjusted twice, brakes stripped and adjusted, new front brake pads and it has been serviced by a Fiat dealer in Bolton twice but the car still judders above 40mph. All this cost me around £700. The steering wheel vibrate along with the rest of the car at these speeds only and the brakes don't vibrate when braking at any speed.

I am told by the Fiat dealer in Bolton that cars involved in accident and insurance written off are not covered by Fiat Warranty. I don't have the UK Warranty booklet so can't check if this is correct. Is this correct?

Has anybody here experienced a similar problem and found a solution. As I understand the car no longer has a warranty the dealer is proposing to strip and check the gearbox as there may be a problem with suspect diff failure. Is this likely to solve the problem? Another post suggest engine mount could be the problem to a similar car suffering from juddering. Any pointers as to which way I should proceed as I would like to solve the problem without is costing me thousands of pound? Is the main dealer the way to go or should I try an independent garage that is less expensive as Fiat dealers are not cheap and don't always get it right.

Is this a known defect as I have just read the article on the guardian web site Dec 2015 Fiat 500 design fault vibration steering wheel?

 

[John202020]

My first thought was are the wheels 'round' yes the tyres may be fine though a wheel fitting place should have seen it when the new tyres are fitted?

Do you know what had happened to the car? were there any pictures of the car and damage?
Yes go to other garages ask around if there are any independent Fiat Alfa specialists?
If it is the diff a secondhand gearbox would be easier and faster to replace, though carries a small risk?

 

[RedBP2004]

Hi John

No there were no pictures of the damage before. I went to the garage where the work was carried out and met the guy who did the repairs. He seemed a decent guy and fixed a couple of the issues I spotted. He explained that it was mostly body work. My wife got a friendly mechanic who serviced her last car and he had the car for a day and he thought the repairs looked safe and well done but he could see what had been changed so it wasn't invisible.

Not sure about the alloy wheels being out of round causing the problem. Why would it only be between 40 and 55 speed range as its very smooth before and after that range. The Fiat dealer put the new tyres on a balanced them looking for a reason for the vibration.

 

[John202020]

Was just a thought , I just changed basically all the front suspension less the hub units, I might have very slight vibration since doing it but am not sure so it's just possible it could be suspension related it's very hard to tell as poor road surface masks anything it's very subtle ie no serious vibration.

 

[jrkitching]

Not sure about the alloy wheels being out of round causing the problem. Why would it only be between 40 and 55 speed range as its very smooth before and after that range. The Fiat dealer put the new tyres on a balanced them looking for a reason for the vibration.

Search the internet for articles about resonance, find one that's at an appropriate technical level commensurate with your own knowledge, and study it carefully. This is as good a place to start as any.

The cause is almost certainly some rotating component that's out of round, or running in worn bearings. On a previously written off car, there are practically limitless possibilities, but start with the ones that are most likely to be damaged in an accident. The roadwheels are an obvious place to start, particularly as out-of-balance wheels tend to resonate in precisely the speed range you're noticing the vibration. A buckled alloy would give exactly the symptoms you describe, and might be impossible to bring back into proper balance. Be sure to check all four.

A late model car could have sustained quite a bit of damage and still only be recorded as a Cat D.

Read this thread for another story about a 500 buyer who unknowingly bought a badly damaged accident repaired car. That one wasn't even recorded!

You could try taking it up with Piccadilly Cars, but realistically your chances of getting any redress this long after purchase aren't good. IMO the chances of you getting this fixed under Fiat's warranty are vanishingly small.

Personally I'd trade the car away at the first opportunity, but I do have a prejudice against accident repaired cars, particularly without evidence of post-crash damage. If the repair has weakened the car, another accident could cost someone their life.

 

[typecastboy]

I have now repaired 10 cat D and 1 cat C cars. I ha e had one that when I took it for an MoT, it failed because one of the front wheels was out if round. This could not be detected when driven. It's quite possible this is the cause.

I would take it for an MoT and see if that picks up anything.

There's nothing wrong with Cat Ds. Did the dealer you bought it from say it was a Cat D as they have to declare it by law. If they didn't then you may have some comeback.

I can only assume that you got a bargain. I sell my cars for about 25% less than an equivalent non write off would cost.

 

[RedBP2004]

Was just a thought , I just changed basically all the front suspension less the hub units, I might have very slight vibration since doing it but am not sure so it's just possible it could be suspension related it's very hard to tell as poor road surface masks anything it's very subtle ie no serious vibration.

Thanks John will look into checking the wheels.

 

[RedBP2004]

The cause is almost certainly some rotating component that's out of round, or running in worn bearings. On a previously written off car, there are practically limitless possibilities, but start with the ones that are most likely to be damaged in an accident. The roadwheels are an obvious place to start, particularly as out-of-balance wheels tend to resonate in precisely the speed range you're noticing the vibration. A buckled alloy would give exactly the symptoms you describe, and might be impossible to bring back into proper balance. Be sure to check all four.

A late model car could have sustained quite a bit of damage and still only be recorded as a Cat D.

You could try taking it up with Piccadilly Cars, but realistically your chances of getting any redress this long after purchase aren't good. IMO the chances of you getting this fixed under Fiat's warranty are vanishingly small.

Personally I'd trade the car away at the first opportunity, but I do have a prejudice against accident repaired cars, particularly without evidence of post-crash damage. If the repair has weakened the car, another accident could cost someone their life.

Thanks for your help. I just thought the wheels would resonate when they hit a natural frequency at a set frequencies and didn't realise it would resonate over a broad range. Will see if my local tyre specials can check this for me. Piccadilly Card was very difficult to deal with there is zero chance of their help I'm afraid.
Not sure how easy I can trade now as every dealer will be able to identify it as cat D vehicle.

 

[RedBP2004]

I have now repaired 10 cat D and 1 cat C cars. I ha e had one that when I took it for an MoT, it failed because one of the front wheels was out if round. This could not be detected when driven. It's quite possible this is the cause.

I would take it for an MoT and see if that picks up anything.

There's nothing wrong with Cat Ds. Did the dealer you bought it from say it was a Cat D as they have to declare it by law. If they didn't then you may have some comeback.

I can only assume that you got a bargain. I sell my cars for about 25% less than an equivalent non write off would cost.

Thanks for your input it was written in small print on the advert and I missed it. I could kick myself for being so stupid. I realise they can be a good buy if repaired professionally but Piccadilly Cars isn't professional at all. The guy who actually did the repairs was a decent bloke and I felt I could trust him but he was working for Piccadilly Cars and he wouldn't show me exactly what work had been done. That's why we had a friendly local mechanic we have used many times to check it out. He gave it a good examination and thought it was safe.
I had just passed its first MOT in June and apart from a little uneven tyre wear on one tyre it didn't find anything. I had it retracked as the tracking done by Bolton Fiat dealer was miles out. I had it tracked by a tyre/exhaust/brake garage I know and trust and they rechecked for me after a month and it's still good.

Not sure it was such a bargain we paid £7,200 for it just over 1 year and 4 months old with 6k miles. I've since spent £700 on it including 2 services. If I could eliminate the vibration I'd be happy with it.

 

[John202020]

Look for damage repair on the side that was miles out.
Our local Fiat dealer is selling 16 plate pre reg cars, ie new for £7900 though maybe not your spec.
Try this though it a very rough method, lock the steering lock, jack up one side and use a fixed support to hold say a steel ruler against the rim of the wheel now slowly turn it to see if the gap gets bigger, now try the same thing where the ruler is just touching the front edge of the rim that faces forward one way checks side to side out the other for aft ie round then try the other side or borrow 4 standard steel wheel and try driving that would be a easy check.
Another simple check is to measure the distance between the two wheels (the outer most edges front to rear) then the other side, they should be the same +/- 1mm or so

 

[jrkitching]

There's a much easier way to check if it's an out of round wheel - just fit the spare onto each of the wheels in turn, and see if it eliminates the problem. Start with the front wheels as they're the most likely suspects.

Remember there's a speed restriction when driving with the spare fitted.

And don't beat yourself up over buying it - we all make mistakes occasionally, and you've learned a valuable lesson. You should still be able to trade it in, but as typecastboy says, you'll likely take a hit of at least 25% of the price you'd have got if it was unrecorded.

 

[John202020]

Why didn't I think of that! Make sure the spare is the correct pressure and you have told your insurance company it's a cat d though they should be able to see that.

 

[RedBP2004]

Hi John thanks again for your input. If I traded the car I would probably go for a Mazda 2 1.5 SE-L Nav as its looks like a good spec for the money. But I don't like the idea of trading my car knowing there is a problem for some other future driver.
Only one alloy rim shows signs of damage so its a good chance its that one but you never know as rims can easily be repaired and its looks invisible. When I have checked the rims I will get our local mechanic to check the suspension in the area the tracking was out first which was on the front. Maybe he can check both front wheels suspension for problems.

 

[RedBP2004]

Thanks JRKitching for your good advice I will do this when I'm off on Sunday. Its hard to not beat yourself up when I should have seen it. My Mum had passed away a while before and my head wasn't right. Like you say you learn from your mistakes. Hopefully! If I try to trade how do I approach the subject of it being a cat D car without sounding desperate?

 

[RedBP2004]

Hi John Our previous insurance company didn't know what to do about cat D cars and they just didn't give me an answer other than to have an MOT done on a 1 year old car. I was told it would be a problem until I got my first MOT certificate as all the insurance companies are happy once its been officially checked. I googles best insurance for cat D cars and chose a recommended policy back in 2015. I scrutinised the small print T&C for insurance write off clauses but there wasn't any. A lot of insurance policies don't have customer support telephone numbers to cut cost.

 

[typecastboy]

Most insurance companies don't care, they just want to know and as long as an MoT has been do e since the repair if the car is old enough for an MoT then they are fine. It doesn't affect the premium in any way.

 

[jrkitching]

Most insurance companies don't care, they just want to know and as long as an MoT has been done since the repair if the car is old enough for an MoT then they are fine. It doesn't affect the premium in any way.

It shouldn't affect your ability to get a competitive insurance quote, or put up the premium, though you should always declare it.

It will, however, affect the payout you'll receive if you're unfortunate enough to have the car written off; you'll likely be offered less than you'd get for an unrecorded car - perhaps much less.

If I try to trade how do I approach the subject of it being a cat D car without sounding desperate?

Just be upfront about it - any dealer is almost certain to do an HPI check before purchase and it's better to tell them in advance than have them think you're trying to hide something.

You might do better to sell privately; although there's no legal requirement for a private seller to disclose its status, there's the moral aspect to consider, plus if the prospective purchaser discovers it for themselves, they're almost certain to walk away.

You'll have to be realistic about the price, however you go about it. If you traded it in today, I'd expect you'd lose about half what you paid for it.

 

[John202020]

When looking on autotrader is very clear to see which cars are cat c/d as it appears on the general search page.

 

[RedBP2004]

Most insurance companies don't care, they just want to know and as long as an MoT has been do e since the repair if the car is old enough for an MoT then they are fine. It doesn't affect the premium in any way.

On the online only insurance sites there doesn't seem to be a way to declare it. I've usually done a search through money supermarket and the others to get the best prices.

 

[RedBP2004]

It shouldn't affect your ability to get a competitive insurance quote, or put up the premium, though you should always declare it.

It will, however, affect the payout you'll receive if you're unfortunate enough to have the car written off; you'll likely be offered less than you'd get for an unrecorded car - perhaps much less.



Just be upfront about it - any dealer is almost certain to do an HPI check before purchase and it's better to tell them in advance than have them think you're trying to hide something.

You might do better to sell privately; although there's no legal requirement for a private seller to disclose its status, there's the moral aspect to consider, plus if the prospective purchaser discovers it for themselves, they're almost certain to walk away.

You'll have to be realistic about the price, however you go about it. If you traded it in today, I'd expect you'd lose about half what you paid for it.

Might give it a try with a dealer when I've finished checking the wheels out and all. Yeah I think the most I would probably get is £3650 or even less for a three year old car. Might just keep it for another year if I solve the vibration problem.