General Advice on buying X1/9

[Midlifecrisis]

Hello to everyone.

Is there anyone who may be able to advise me on purchasing an X1/9. I have been offered a cracking one from a seller in Cornwall UK. The car went through an MOT just the other day and sailed through so it's Mot'd for a year. I'm going to check it out at the weekend but would appreciate any advice on which area's of the car I should be checking that prove to cause trouble in these cars. I'm used to buying fords and jags so Fiats are all new to me.

Any help would be appreciated. I should mention that in my excitement, I forgot to ask what year the car was or specific model. My only excuse for this is that I have been dying to own a X1/9 since being a spotty 14 year old in the seventies and now I'm in a mid life crisis, I want one.

Thanks

 

[Jefflun]

Hi,
i don't profess to be an expert, but I have had a couple, so I know a little bit. Don't buy one if you are not prepared to perform a relatively high maintainence regime. They need a fair bit of TLC. Well certainly more than most newer cars today, but they are basic and generally fairly easy to work on.
Fiat didn't have a very good under top coat protection system back then, so look for signs of rust everywhere and in particular, around the windscreen, bottom of doors, sill panels and underbody. Fiat engines are generally bullet proof to a degree, depends on how many k's are on the clock.
If it's flown through an MOT as you suggest it sounds like it might be ok.
A drive should give you a fairly good indication of what the car is like mechanically anyway. Make sure there are no nasty clunks, bangs , wobbles or grinds while you driving. The 1500cc fuel injected is probably a better buy than a 1300cc naturally aspirated, both for performance and reliability, but thats not law.
Anyway the long and the short is if its a good motor , buy it you wont be disappointed. It corners like it's on rails and it's probably the cheapest convertible you can buy and heaps of fun to drive to boot.
Jeff

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Many thanks for your advice Jefflun. The bloke who has it is in his early 50's so I'm hoping he has looked after it well. I will certainly look out for the area's you suggest.

Thanks again

 

[jimbro1000]

You will not find any fuel injected X1/9s in the UK unless they've been modified but the carburettor version is very strong and offers as much or more performance than the "normal" fuel injected version as there are no emission control concessions.

All the advice above is otherwise perfectly correct. All I can add to the advice is to look really close at the bodywork. In particular get underneath the front and look at the area below the front bumper as this gets some of the worst thrown at it. Any signs of rust bubbling up can be serious. Similarly look inside the front luggage area and in particular the side panels as these rust through from the wheelarch but you can't see the wheelarch side due to plastic liners. While in the luggage area look at the panel across the car just in front of the windscreen scuttle where the hyraulic fluid reservoirs are. If the reservoirs have leaked, overflowed or been carelessly filled at any time there is a fair chance that the panel will rot through and you get a line of corrosion across that area. In the same region the rain holes from the scuttle should be clear of leaves or other debris.

The suspension turrets should be free of any corrosion - these are especially difficult to fix.

Bottom of the doors are particularly vulnerable, the windscreen surround is a pain too. Check that all the door/cover release mechanisms work. The front one is on the lhs in the passenger footwell and locks the bonnet down (unsprung). The rear releases are on the same side to the rear of the door and built into the frame. These are lockable (with the door key) and sprung.

The rear of the car tends to suffer a little less but look carefully at the underside of the panel above and behind the rear screen. Another known area prone to rot.

The rear suspension turrets are the same concern as the fronts.

The last area to check carefully is in the rear luggage area. Lift the trim mat an underneath you should find a screw-in panel. It only has four screws so it only takes a moment to remove it. Underneath is a thick mat of insulation (very similar to roof insulation so wear gloves if possible) and below that is the actual bodywork. Give it a good look as these tend to disintegrate due to the insulation retaining moisture. The rot then spreads outward. At the same time look at the panel between the luggage area and the engine bay. It may have some trim over it but that should be easily removable. Check all the way around the edge of it for rust. If the bottom of the luggage area has gone this will be the next panel to follow. It is a bit intrusive but it really does pay to check it over and if the current owner is serious about selling a very good condition car then he should know all about these points anyway.

 

[jimbro1000]

Mechanically these isn't much to go wrong but check the brakes all work cleanly with no sticking (tends to result in sudden lockup as pedal pressure increases) and that the gearshift is smooth.

The rear of the car can produce some interesting and hard to locate knocking noises but they are all pretty easy to fix except for the ball joints on the wishbones. Any knocking noises are of course a symptom of wear so it does mean the car would need some work rather than being ready to run without worry.

The usual stuff applies of course - check the heater works, the engine doesn't overheat, the radiator fan kicks in once the engine gets hot, etc.

Make sure all of the electrics work - Italy may be a world leader in electronics but the X1/9 is an old car with old electrics. There are a long list of normal modifications needed to keep things working in prime condition. Also make sure all of the switches light up when the side lights are switched on. The light source is a single 5W bulb behind the central console that feeds a bundle of fibre-optic cables. The plastic ends that clip into the switches tend to snap off or the cables get cut by overenthusiastic engineers.

If I think of anything else obvious I'll post it up later

The interior is reasonably robust but the dashboard can crack if the car has been left in direct sunlight. Carpet under the pedals wears through. The seats tend to split along the stitching if heavily worn.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Jimbro,

Many thanks for your excellent advice. I collected the car this morning and checked every area you suggested much to the woman's concern. It had all the sills checked for the MOT and passed with no problems or advisory. There is some bubbling on some of the area's you mention but I will see to these when I return home. I was informed that there appeared to be a voltage regulator problem as the battery seemed to go flat after a while and they claimed that they got round this by disconnecting a cable leading from the starter motor when they parked up. However, having driven the car 100 miles, I stalled at a roundabout and the engine would not turn when attempting to start the car. I just got nothing when turning the key. Fortunately, the boys in blue turned up, stopped all the traffic and bump started me. I got back to where I am staying on holiday and switched off and tried to start the engine again but again nothing. Went out an hour later and the car started no problem but would not start again after switching the ignition off. I have no idea where to start looking although a friend I contacted suggested it might be the soliniod. Is this a common problem?

Anyway, thanks again for your help and love this site.

 

[jimbro1000]

That is a tricky one that I have personal experience of myself. There isn't an immediate obvious cure as it stems from a number of sources but you can do something to reduce the issue.

First of all you need to replace some wiring, thankfully it is the heavy duty cable so it is easy to identify. Make sure everything is properly earthed - the real issue is that the starter motor isn't getting the full 12 volts from the battery. You don't have to remove the old wires, just run new ones in parallel.

The problem is eccentuated when the engine is hot as the bottom end of the engine expands slightly when hot and the tolerances are all but removed. The starter motor also suffers in this situation when the internals are worn (not so much the solenoid).

The problem doesn't stop there though. You also need to take a look at the fuelling. You can solve the starter not turning but you'll find that the next problem is that it will run for a few seconds and then stall - this is due to a vapour lock in the fuel delivery system. You can reduce the chances of this by using an electric fuel pump instead of the mechanical one, if that is a bit too much then you can help the situation by ditching the large air filter housing and fitting a small high performance filter - it may not seem obvious but the original air filter catches all the heat rising and transfers it to the carburettor. It all starts to get a little bit complicated as you then have a sump vent to find an outlet for. Normally this feeds back into the air filter but not all performance filters have the fitting for it.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Jimbro,

Again I bow to your excellent advice.

I called out the Rac who did a voltage check and found that power was getting to the starter motor but judged that the starter motor required to be reconditioned to work as it should. As we needed to travel home to Scotland from Yeovil the day after, we decided to bump start it and do this if we had to stop for fuel etc. However as great plans never work out as planned, the car drove like a dream until we hit the M5 / M6 junction and got stuck in the usual traffic jam. As we stopped and started for 30 minutes the revs kept labouring and would cut out. We would start the car and it would happen again and again. In the end we pulled over to the hard shoulder and called the Rac again. As we were unable to turn the engine over, the Rac bloke could not check whether it was the points, dizzy cap, carbs etc but guessed that the carburetor would require a good cleaning. when we eventually got home. In the end after cleaning what he could and the engine sounding labored at high revs, he arranged a piggy back to transport the car home.

I will get the starter motor reconditioned tomorrow and will have a new small high performance filter fitted as suggested.

Your comments were again right on mark and if you ever fancy a weeks holiday in i the Scottish Highlands then give me a shout. Free food and board in exchange for a busmans holiday on offer !!!

Many thanks

 

[jimbro1000]

Thanks for the offer - I just have to figure out how to escape from the kids long enough

I landed myself in that situation so many times with my first X1/9 (along with other problems) and at the time never quite figured it out.

Reconditioning the starter motor is definitely a good idea if only to ensure that it is working so you can exclude it from the list of possibilities should it happen again.

One of the most substantial issues with the car (in general) is that despite the Italians flair for electronics they never quite got to grips with the longevity issue at that time (and still have problems today). The complexity of the wiring compared with contemporary cars from other manufacturers is astounding which of course makes it even more complex to track down faults but from personal experience it normally comes down to just a few things.

1) Poor earths - this has more to do with corrosion than poor wiring but without a decent earthing point every circuit in the car will perform poorly

2) Water ingress - condensation in the cabin results in water creeping into the wiring and ultimately causes more corrosion. The biggest victim is the main power feed to the fuse box - replace this and usually everything springs back to life. To make things worse a leaky windscreen or heater matrix can spell disaster

3) Skimping on relays - despite the huge number of relays in the fusebox they were kept to the bare minimum. For most circuits it isn't an issue but for the headlights it is a disaster. Mid-life cars were given a pair of high-beam relays to improve visibility (remember that they used sealed tungsten lamps) while the later cars had relays for the dipped circuit as well. The reason for the upgrades is that the steering column switch tended to melt internally around the contacts. The telltale is watching the charge light when you switch the lights on. If the light comes on stronger with dipped than it does with full beam then you know that you're missing the dipped relays. This of course assumes that the charge light comes on when the lights are used (which sums up pretty much every X1/9 I've ever sat in). If the charge light doesn't appear then you probably do not need to upgrade any of the wiring as someone has done it for you already!

4) Bodged repairs - most auto-electricians just run away screaming when they see an X1/9 so it is normally down to the less qualified (or more likely unqualified) electricians to try and fix things when it goes wrong. The end result is hideous to put straight but it can be done with patience. The trick is to make sure you have the right version of the wiring loom diagrams. They changed regularly and on top of that there tends to be a degree of cheating at the factory when a particular colour wire ran out so tracing the wire you want can be entertaining to say the least.

5) Poor QA at the factory - modern wiring loom testing is automated and doesn't just test continuity, there are checks for impedence and interference that ensure the loom is properly assembled. A 70s or 80s Fiat doesn't have the benefit of such things and on top of that the connectors are little more than plastic shrouded crimped spade terminals, nothing like modern self-sealing connectors. Even the printed circuit boards used in the dashboard have been known to corrode so you can assume nothing about the quality of the wiring even if it is untouched.

 

[bludvl_x19]

How about a free trip to Australia? All is needed is a will to completly overhaul my X.

blu:devil:

 

[Midlifecrisis]

bludvl_x19, As much as a free holiday in Oz sounds inviting, Jimbro will be with you after a couple of weeks in the Highlands.

 

[bludvl_x19]

bludvl_x19, As much as a free holiday in Oz sounds inviting, Jimbro will be with you after a couple of weeks in the Highlands.

Well you can probably afford to ship him over, so you can have him first . . :bang:

blu:devil:

 

[Midlifecrisis]

Starter Motor, Alternator, Electrics? It never ends

Jim & co,

Could I bother you with further advice please. I am having similar problems as bludvl_x19 is experiencing and which I recently explained in an earlier post.

With the battery fully charged and turning the ignition key, a click sound which I presume comes from the starter motor can be heard. On taking the car to a friends house, I bumped started the car and experienced the battery light staying on. When I used my lights or indicators the car ran like a bag of nails until I switched them off. Eventually I got to the friends house and the starter motor was changed with one I got from a scrappy. However this did nothing to resolve the problem, neither with the starting problem or the battery light staying on and the car driving badly when using lights etc. It may be worth mentioning at this point though that the car would start when jump leads were attached to another car.

Today I changed the alternator but continue to have the same starting problem but this time, out of ten attempts at starting, the engine would start 2-3 times and the battery light stays off allowing me to use the lights etc with no adverse affect on driving the car.

My question is: Can I run a heavy duty cable from the starter directly to the battery for testing the existing cable or would this be a waste of time? Would it be easier to give the car to an auto electrician to find the problem or is there anything else I could try before spending money on electricians. I have recently purchased a number of spares including new relays, another starter motor, flywheel incl clutch plates and bolts with relevant components etc just in case.

Any advice would be most welcome as the days are running out fast up here in Scotland, for enjoying my little car before storing it in the garage for winter.

Cheers

 

[jimbro1000]

The diagnostics for the starter go something like this (assuming the battery is in good order):

1) Make sure the starter motor is properly earthed, all of the engine ground straps must be in place with good contact at either end (more of a problem on the chassis side). Try the engine after doing this and see if it has made a difference.

2) Clip a wire from the big live post on the solenoid and touch it to the wire from the ignition switch. The starter should at the least go "clunk" and better still should spin the engine (be prepared for this and make sure you are clear of any moving parts). If this works reliably every time then the problem is a poor connection between solenoid and ignition switch (unlikely but you need to eliminate it first).

3) Now run some heavy duty wire from the +ve terminal on the battery to the starter motor. Try going direct to the starter itself and you should be able to spin the motor every time without needing the ignition switch. If this cures the problem the issue is the original wire from the battery to the starter *or* the solenoid itself.

4) Now try connecting your new wire to the solenoid instead and try the ignition switch. If this works every time then the problem is the wire. If it still gives trouble then the problem is the solenoid (new starter time) or your ignition switch (try step 2 again and if that eliminates the fault then it is the switch).

If none of the above makes any difference at all to starting the engine then the starter motor itself is the fault.

The charge light was down to the alternator. Even with a good alternator you can find the light comes on with the headlights - see my previous post on this matter for the cure. The poor running with the lights on was the battery being overloaded without being charged.

The fact it works with jump leads suggests it is going to be a wiring issue. The voltage you get with jump leads is actually around the 13.4V mark instead of just 12V which helps to overcome the restrictions. In most situations it is going to be a bad earth (step 1) or the main feed from the battery (step 3).

There is of course a possibility that the battery itself is at fault and is not providing you with the basic 12v or is incapable of providing the peak current draw you need. A simple drop test across the terminals would answer that question but you need a drop tester to do it (try your local friendly motorspares shop). If the battery is not of the sealed kind you can open the individual cell caps and take a peak (be careful for obvious reasons - no naked flames, don't tip the battery up and try not to get battery acid all over you - a pair of safety goggles is definitely recommended). If any of the cells show the fluid level below the top of the plates you need to top them up with de-ionised water. For a simple DIY drop test (assuming the cell caps come off) you can watch the cells while someone else tries the starter motor. You should see fairly profuse bubbling from each cell. If any of the cells doesn't bubble then the battery is junk - the plates in that cell will be distorted and touching which basically means it isn't doing anything. Be very careful if you do try this test, a splash of battery acid to the eye is not going to be pleasant and will require a quick trip to the hospital to try and save your eye (not as bad as getting lime in it though).

Hope that helps you out!

Julian

 

[thepottleflump]

My advise on buying an X1/9 - buy a welder and lots of mild steel.