2002 mk2 1.9D (not JTD)

There is a slight oil leak (a fine spray) coming from the front of the cam box black plastic moulding. Not sure if it`s the actual gasket or the cover itself thats a fine crack under the front.
Anything I should be aware of in this area before I take it off to fit a new gasket?

It seems this cover is also part of the inlet manifold - how do the inlets intakes seal? are they separate gaskets? or O rings that don`t need renewing?
Also what is the device that`s held into the cover by two bolts and running from the silver mesh covered hose?

Are there any breathers that could have blocked and caused this slight oil leak>
By the way, It occurs as a fine oil spray out of the (hidden from view) front base of the cam cover, but only above about 60mph.

That had me thinking about blowback past the rings but the engine doesn`t burn oil and has done 55,000 miles.

Thanks for any advice.

Any thoughts?

Is Littlepip around? I had heard he was the leading Fiat tech on the forum for knowledge and sharing it..

Peccadillo said:

Any thoughts?

Is Littlepip around? I had heard he was the leading Fiat tech on the forum for knowledge and sharing it..

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any pics, I cant quite think where you mean specifically.

If its spraying out then it suggests it is under pressure. I had a crack in a vauxhall rocker cover oil blew out coating the heater matrix pipes and disintigrated them. beware as used diesel oil softens rubber.

hi bridges, thanks for responding. i can`t do a photo, but its either the plastic cam cover gasket - right at the front centre as you open the bonnet - but sort of hidden below the plastic shroud.

Either the gasket - or a split in the cam cover, right under there, where you cant see it.
I notice you have the 1.9JTD but i think the cam cover is different.
It only spits oil above a certain speed and as its the wifes car and never gets up to that, ive not tackled it, although its been there for 3 years.

That`s because its a very fine spitting - straight onto the rad, which i`ve just tended to keep clean with the odd spray of gunk. (It misses the rubber hoses)

To give perspective, the oil level doesn`t noticably drop between 6 month services and typically it just leaves a drop of oil on the drive after a long hot run, which it rarely does.

I hate plastic engine tops / manifolds like this and am reluctant to take it off only to find it cracked or have trouble sealing it - running up expense (gaskets circa £12 - but what of that big plastic cover?) on a car that`s in it`s 8th year.

I`m really interested in what looks like a seperately (O rings) sealed inlet manifold - part of the same plastic lid.

If it were spitting oil at all speeds I would have to go for it, but i`ve learned the hard way over years that it might be a bigger problem than first though.
This was done under warranty by the way, then went again, then again, the last time (prior to leaking the third time) coming back from the dealer oozing red gasket goo from arond the visible gasket area.

It doesn`t inspire confidence in a permanent fix.

It`s lost Fiat a customer - when it`s 10 years old she says she`s getting a Toyota....

I can see too that the original (factory) breather/air hose clips are on the top cover, meaning it hasn`t been taken right off the car before the new gasket/sealing attempts were done. I`ve wondered whether they split the cover where a hose stub joins or not cleaned the joints leading to the leaks.

I`m putting myself off doing it, just writing about it . ;-)

Cheers

Peccadillo said:

2002 mk2 1.9D (not JTD)

There is a slight oil leak (a fine spray) coming from the front of the cam box black plastic moulding. Not sure if it`s the actual gasket or the cover itself thats a fine crack under the front.
Anything I should be aware of in this area before I take it off to fit a new gasket?

Click to expand...

can't see the specific area you refer to.. There are two know leak points on the 1.9D engine, one is around the vacuum pump (failing Oring) and the other is the intake manifold right by the radiator (dirty EGR valve)... neither will spray oil...

It seems this cover is also part of the inlet manifold - how do the inlets intakes seal? are they separate gaskets? or O rings that don`t need renewing?

Click to expand...

rubber gasket, similiar to the one used on the cam cover..

Also what is the device that`s held into the cover by two bolts and running from the silver mesh covered hose?

Click to expand...

EGR valve, has the tendency to clog the intake with carbon/oil, eventually the oil will be noticed by placing the hand under the intake manifold (it will simply seep through the gasket and not spray or leak out)

Are there any breathers that could have blocked and caused this slight oil leak>
By the way, It occurs as a fine oil spray out of the (hidden from view) front base of the cam cover, but only above about 60mph.

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can't think of any, the only thing can can take oil into the intake is the EGR valve.. the block breather goes directly to the cam cover..

That had me thinking about blowback past the rings but the engine doesn`t burn oil and has done 55,000 miles.

Thanks for any advice.

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easy way is to look at the smoke level, it should not make any smoke at all.. mine is at 140k already and it consumes no oil

Hi Guys, thanks for the help. Here is an attempt at photos - sorry about the file sizes.


it should be one shot from above
one from the right
one from the left, camera inserted in the engine bay.


I should say too that this is a really well maintained engine - it has had 3,000 mile oil changes.
Only thing of note is that it has had severe stop start work as wife works as a community nurse.


If it`s the EGR valve, can I blank it off? and how is it done?
http://www.oilrag.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/1.jpg
http://www.oilrag.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/2.jpg
http://www.oilrag.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/leak3.jpghttp://www.oilrag.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/3.jpg

Any thoughts at all on the photos Guys?

cheers

Peccadillo said:

Any thoughts at all on the photos Guys?

cheers

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definitely a clogged EGR valve, i just cleaned mine a few weeks ago

Smokeme, How do you access and clean the EGR valve?

Thanks

Peccadillo said:

Smokeme, How do you access and clean the EGR valve?

Thanks

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remove the screws marked in red, pay attention to the metalic gasket that will fall from the yellow mark taking care not to damage it.. the pipe will extend about 10cm into the intake manifold.. clean it out with solvent since it will be full of pasted oil, i used carb cleaner.. the valve itself was clean on mine and only the pipe to the intake was clogged..

If you want to remove the valve it takes 4 screws and smoke scrapped knuckles, it's the part that attaches to the block where the gasket is..

That`s great, Thanks.

There has been a slight jerking (like a misfire) at low revs for the last few months too - and no codes showing.
I wonder if its the EGR causing that as well as the oil leak?

Is there anyway to either electrically or mechanically close off the EGR valve to see if it`s causing the hesitation.
I`m assuming too that if the EGR was blanked with a plate (where?) that no oil would get to the black housing where if leaks out.

Any thoughts?

Peccadillo said:

That`s great, Thanks.

There has been a slight jerking (like a misfire) at low revs for the last few months too - and no codes showing.
I wonder if its the EGR causing that as well as the oil leak?

Is there anyway to either electrically or mechanically close off the EGR valve to see if it`s causing the hesitation.
I`m assuming too that if the EGR was blanked with a plate (where?) that no oil would get to the black housing where if leaks out.

Any thoughts?

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the jerking is present on ALL puntos with a 1.9d engine, it's most noticiable when the rear engine mount becomes worn or breaks.. Fiat claims it's normal but from my datalogs i know it's a lean spot around 1700-1900rpm (50-60km/h in 4th gear) just have no ideia what's causing it.. My car did not do it and it just started from nothing, it's been getting worse over the past 6months to the point i just use 3rd gear where i would normally be in 4th.. I'm attempting to crack the ecu (lucas dcu3f) since i plan on turbocharging this engine in the near future..

there is a plug on the egr, unplugging it disables the egr.. it has no effect on the jerking, mine was removed (unplugged and blanked off with a plate at both ends) got an egr error code though

smokeme said:

it's been getting worse over the past 6months to the point i just use 3rd gear where i would normally be in 4th..

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that`s a perfect description of ours....

Update

Hi Guys,

First time i`ve stripped an EGR system these 45 years or so..

There has been an oil leak from (somewhere - couldn`t see directly) under the combined cambox/EGR/inlet tract on our 1.9 (not JTD, the IDI) it was spitting oil at the radiator at speeds over 60mph.

Stripped it off and the part of the cover that seals the cambox seemed fine - also the breather pipe to the back of the crankcase was clear.

When I took off the air trunking to the air cleaner, the air cleaner end was spotless - but there was a about 10ml of engine oil pooled at the other end - where it enters the air intake part of the combined cover.
Took the EGR pipe of the EGR valve itelf and this was clean. Inside the intake system where it enters the inlet tract part of the cover ( and directly above the oil pooled in the lower air intake pipe) was covered in oil and what seemed like wet oil shale.. (That end of the EGR pipe was restricted to around half its normal bore, by a drier `shale`.

(the external leak seemed to be from an O ring in the combined cover - after the EGR pipe intake)

The individual inlet tracts were exposed at the back of the engine - these had obviously been taking in a wet oil shale substance - although they were not restricted.

Question is -- where is the oil coming from in the intake system, when the actual EGR valve was dry and a grey exhaust colour?

It uses no oil noticable oil between services and there is no turbo...


What do none turbo diesel EGR systems typically look like as they enter the inlet tracts?

Thanks!

Peccadillo said:

Update

Hi Guys,

First time i`ve stripped an EGR system these 45 years or so..

There has been an oil leak from (somewhere - couldn`t see directly) under the combined cambox/EGR/inlet tract on our 1.9 (not JTD, the IDI) it was spitting oil at the radiator at speeds over 60mph.

Stripped it off and the part of the cover that seals the cambox seemed fine - also the breather pipe to the back of the crankcase was clear.

When I took off the air trunking to the air cleaner, the air cleaner end was spotless - but there was a about 10ml of engine oil pooled at the other end - where it enters the air intake part of the combined cover.
Took the EGR pipe of the EGR valve itelf and this was clean. Inside the intake system where it enters the inlet tract part of the cover ( and directly above the oil pooled in the lower air intake pipe) was covered in oil and what seemed like wet oil shale.. (That end of the EGR pipe was restricted to around half its normal bore, by a drier `shale`.

(the external leak seemed to be from an O ring in the combined cover - after the EGR pipe intake)

The individual inlet tracts were exposed at the back of the engine - these had obviously been taking in a wet oil shale substance - although they were not restricted.

Question is -- where is the oil coming from in the intake system, when the actual EGR valve was dry and a grey exhaust colour?

It uses no oil noticable oil between services and there is no turbo...


What do none turbo diesel EGR systems typically look like as they enter the inlet tracts?

Thanks!

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the EGR should be spotless, in reality they should shoot whoever had the EGR ideia, it does more harm then good..

the oil does not/will not spray, it simply weeps from the gasket and is pulled onto the rad by the fan.. this is a fact and not a theory, if you think otherwise post a video of the oil spraying to the rad..

the intake is never under pressure so it can't spray oil..

the oil vapour comes from the CCV and condenses from the EGR gases..

block the EGR valve and you'll see that the oil problem goes away..

smokeme said:

they should shoot whoever had the EGR ideia, it does more harm then good..

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Is there for a reason....its the law! (emission legislation)

T14086 said:

Is there for a reason....its the law! (emission legislation)

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it only works when it's clean, when it's dirty like on most engine on the road it actually increases emissions..

i've done some tests where the egr disconnected actually produced lower emissions then a clean egr on the same engine.. not sure if it's the same on other engines though

Well, Smokeme - as T, the DET technician, is not countering your technical advice that the EGR is causing the oil leakage - I`m taking that as a `coded green light` from him to do what you suggest.:devil:

(Actually did it yesterday but had been prepared to take it off following DET knowledge )

I appreciate that teeth may grind in Fiat HQ (Is the forum part of that - taken over like Vichy France?)and Dixon Of Dock Green may get his Police helmet tarnished as it goes past with a little plate sealing off the `oil shale` plant - AKA the EGR system...

But the problem is I was faced with a car on the drive and crucially, Haynes don`t do a manual on the Diesel engine.

Not only that, but under the domestic Tutorship Scheme - costs are being cut and when I ring in with faults - I have to cut costs by using whatever means at my disposal to not waste money. Hence little bits of cut out tin can for an EGR blanking plate - and so on.

I only get one biscuit brought out instead of two and if I complain my bonuses are cut...

(This has nothing to do with the actual Fiat Tutorship - allegedly cost cutting dealer and tech three line whip -DET technician biscuit reduction program)

As you can see - a friendly joke to T- as usual

(This thread is also cross linked to the Doblo section - as it`s the same `desperate gasper` that powers a few particularly enfeebled Dobbins

Conclusion (Road Test)

Having stripped the top cover off - new gaskets - and blanked off the EGR valve with part of a 1 litre Gunk can, cut to form a blanking gasket.

The oil leak is gone and the car runs more smoothly than it ever has.

I first noticed that it would pull 4th at 30mph without the juddering and need to change down into 3rd.
Then, as I went around the city ring road I experimented and let speed drop of to 25mph in 4th - still smooth pulling with no judder.

I then did the extreme of letting the car drop to tickover in 4th... It drove itself smoothly at around 18mph and then picked up smoothly on the throttle with no judder. (unbelievable difference)

This, from a car that would not pull 30mph in 4th before I blanked the EGR.

I might put the code reader on later, to see if a code is flagged - but no spanner lights are lit.

I can`t remember it ever running this smoothly, even when new.

I know the juddering was a lean mixture, i have datalogs to prove it.. There are a few things that can cause that like a clogged airfilter, intake leak, clogged fuel filter, clogged injectors, faulty injector pump or the EGR valve.. This was ruling out Fiat got the coding wrong on the ECU, it's known to work very well until around 30k where the problems begin

Having the maintenance fully done and the injectors pop tested i knew it was either faulty injector pump or the EGR, i expected the injector pump to be good since it would not do it in the lower gears.. cleaned and blocked the EGR and problem solved..

It would still judder a little, on further nvestigation i noticed the rear gearbox mount was worn out, replaced that and no more juder

The ECU will flag the EGR code but will not light the service light

I've always had the same cost cutting ideia, it doesn't take much to realize money will only stretch so far..