I read an article about a track day where Panda 100 HP beat Gallardo, Carrera, Subaru Impreza Sti and other big fast cars - as it was monsoon rain. I saw picture series where you see the Panda gradually passes all these
super sports and even AWD Subaru and Mitsubishi, as they all struggle in the monsoon rain that hit the track. Gallardo spins out, other cars cannot enter
turns as fast as Panda and eventually Panda passes them all as because of its relatively narrow tires it cuts through the water better than the other cars with wider tires.

Does this advantage apply only on lots of water? How about in regular rain when there is only thin layer of water on the road? Is Panda 100 HP still
better gripping in bends than supersports? I know my Panda 1.2 has even narrower tires than 100 HP but it does not feel very grippy in rain. Maybe I would feel the same advantage only in monsoon. Do you agree?

ruinin said:

I know my Panda 1.2 has even narrower tires than 100 HP but it does not feel very grippy in rain.

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The first time I drove my Active in the rain I scared myself silly! I don't think I've ever driven a car that understeers so badly. It corners worse than my Reliant Robin in the wet! Maybe I'll have to take a drive in a 100HP to see if there really is that much difference!

mjb said:

The first time I drove my Active in the rain I scared myself silly! I don't think I've ever driven a car that understeers so badly. It corners worse than my Reliant Robin in the wet! Maybe I'll have to take a drive in a 100HP to see if there really is that much difference!

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understeer can be corrected a bit by the difference in tire pressure at the front and back - say 2.2 at the front and 1.8 at the back will change the behavior into less understeer and more oversteer

Understeer is simply asking too much of the tyres (suddenly creating too big a slip angle between the front and rear tyres). You can maximise the available grip by steering earlier - a tyre typically takes about 1/2 second to deform and grip - to set the tyre up and then applying power.

Chris

I really look forward to one of those days where the rain buckets down and I'm driving on a country road with lots of flooding and big puddles by the roadside.
The Panda 4x4 really comes into its own in these conditions.

doctorchris said:

I really look forward to one of those days where the rain buckets down and I'm driving on a country road with lots of flooding and big puddles by the roadside.
The Panda 4x4 really comes into its own in these conditions.

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Ah but it has a slight drawback, for playing like that you need an oil burning lump :bang:

The 100HP is great in the rain (I myself have seen off a 993 C4) round a 270 degree slip road, but on track I'd expect a decent driver in any of the cars mentioned to easily cruise past the Panda.

Just IMO.

Ben

I would be very surprised if a Panda could be anywhere near any of those alternatives.......

ruinin said:

I read an article about a track day where Panda 100 HP beat Gallardo, Carrera, Subaru Impreza Sti and other big fast cars - as it was monsoon rain. I saw picture series where you see the Panda gradually passes all these
super sports and even AWD Subaru and Mitsubishi, as they all struggle in the monsoon rain that hit the track. Gallardo spins out, other cars cannot enter
turns as fast as Panda and eventually Panda passes them all as because of its relatively narrow tires it cuts through the water better than the other cars with wider tires.

Does this advantage apply only on lots of water? How about in regular rain when there is only thin layer of water on the road? Is Panda 100 HP still
better gripping in bends than supersports? I know my Panda 1.2 has even narrower tires than 100 HP but it does not feel very grippy in rain. Maybe I would feel the same advantage only in monsoon. Do you agree?

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Its more the case that the drivers of the other cars cannot drive. I see this a lot on wet trackdays. Just because one car passes another does not mean its necessarily quicker.

Sorry thats just rubbish. All those other cars would run rings around the panda if driven properly.

To give an example I love wet trackdays. My old MK1 MR2 Supercharger (182bhp) worked really well in the wet. I would normally go out and come back in again once i'd overtaken everything. For some strange reason a lot of people don't have the confidence in the wet.

Driving quickly in the wet is a great leveller its much more about driver ability than car ability especially if its a turbo nutter barge and you can't get the power down, you have to be far more sensitive with the throttle.

ruinin said:

understeer can be corrected a bit by the difference in tire pressure at the front and back - say 2.2 at the front and 1.8 at the back will change the behavior into less understeer and more oversteer

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If anything you need to increase pressures at the rear to decrease grip and allow it to move a bit.

Tbh changing the tyres pressures unless you make an extreme change won't affect handling that much. Technique helps a lot though. Trail-braking is essential really in a FWD car.

as above it depends on driver

trackdayqueen said:

Trail-braking is essential really in a FWD car.

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I don't think that's true at all Trail braking is a technique that can be used, but it's far from essential. The key is smooth, minimal, accurate inputs to maximise the available grip from the tyres. I've sat in and coached a few drivers and one of the recurring traits I see is people steering too much and too late in a bend which means the tyres are suddenly being asked to grip at a very big slip angle, which obviously they can't, and the car understeers towards the nearest hedge.

I'm a big advocate of Stressed Dave's technique here which works equally well in FWD, RWD or 4WD.

As for the OP's question, I think it depends on the track as tight wet handling circuits will favour cars which are able to put the power down and we found something similar at North Weald where the instructors in their Scoobs and Elises were struggling to match more mundane shopping cars around the course. There's also the question of how much it's gonna cost if you stuff it and if I was behind the wheel of a Murcielago, old grannies would be overtaking me

Chris

ScoobyChris said:

I don't think that's true at all Trail braking is a technique that can be used, but it's far from essential. The key is smooth, minimal, accurate inputs to maximise the available grip from the tyres. I've sat in and coached a few drivers and one of the recurring traits I see is people steering too much and too late in a bend which means the tyres are suddenly being asked to grip at a very big slip angle, which obviously they can't, and the car understeers towards the nearest hedge.

I'm a big advocate of Stressed Dave's technique here which works equally well in FWD, RWD or 4WD.

As for the OP's question, I think it depends on the track as tight wet handling circuits will favour cars which are able to put the power down and we found something similar at North Weald where the instructors in their Scoobs and Elises were struggling to match more mundane shopping cars around the course. There's also the question of how much it's gonna cost if you stuff it and if I was behind the wheel of a Murcielago, old grannies would be overtaking me

Chris

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That's basic technique really. Nothing wrong with that, i'm most certainly not saying its wrong by any means. Its pretty much exactly how I used to drive/race. Its certainly a good starting point for sure.

Since switching to a FWD car though i've found that trail braking gives a really good benefit in lessening understeer and getting the rear slightly mobile (or more if you wish). Its a way of getting the weight to transfer to the front, thus unloading the rear which in turn helps turn-in.

It took me 3 trackdays for the penny to drop and to realise how much of an improvement it was. I showed my partner and he seemed to pick it up pretty well by the end of the day. I agree trail-braking poorly done is no use at all, but get it right and you can brake a lot later and carry far more speed into the corner by setting the car into a 4-wheel drift allowing you to simply nail the throttle once the car is at the desired angle (ie when you can see through the apex) as being FWD nailing the throttle will pull the car out of the slide and give you great exit speed.

Obviously having an LSD helps. The Panda doesn't have that of course.


As you say though you are absolutely right about tight twisty tracks in the wet. Big cars with loads of power that they can't get down will be at a disadvantage compared to relatively low powered cars, just like my old MR2 really. The rain is certainly a great leveller. If only every trackday could be wet on the track and dry in the paddock!

trackdayqueen said:

Its more the case that the drivers of the other cars cannot drive. I see this a lot on wet trackdays. Just because one car passes another does not mean its necessarily quicker.

Sorry thats just rubbish. All those other cars would run rings around the panda if driven properly.

To give an example I love wet trackdays. My old MK1 MR2 Supercharger (182bhp) worked really well in the wet. I would normally go out and come back in again once i'd overtaken everything. For some strange reason a lot of people don't have the confidence in the wet.

Driving quickly in the wet is a great leveller its much more about driver ability than car ability especially if its a turbo nutter barge and you can't get the power down, you have to be far more sensitive with the throttle.

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the driver in the Panda said and i saw the pictures, that it was monsoon conditions and that his narrow tires could cut through the high layers of water, while the big supersports tires were just useless and could not transform the power to the road plus could not brake = also it would be strange that the panda driver was better than the others = the others just go to these tracks regularly, it is a club of car owners, while the panda driver is just an Czech Autocar magazine journalist

oh one argument that the others just cant drive - i think formula one drivers can drive pretty well and cannot handle formula one cars in monsoon conditions either, so here we go - you know most of them spin off - the tires are just too wide

ruinin said:

the driver in the Panda said and i saw the pictures, that it was monsoon conditions and that his narrow tires could cut through the high layers of water, while the big supersports tires were just useless and could not transform the power to the road plus could not brake = also it would be strange that the panda driver was better than the others = the others just go to these tracks regularly, it is a club of car owners, while the panda driver is just an Czech Autocar magazine journalist

oh one argument that the others just cant drive - i think formula one drivers can drive pretty well and cannot handle formula one cars in monsoon conditions either, so here we go - you know most of them spin off - the tires are just too wide

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Well if you are aquaplaning then sure narrower tyres would be an advantage. There are way too many variables though to make sweeping generalisations. Also a FWD panda with only 100bhp is going to be a lot easier to handle than a RWD car with 300bhp isn't it really?

Nobody can corner a car effectively if there is so much standing water the car is aquaplaning. If the tyre can clear the water then i think you'll find that even F1 drivers can go pretty well. Have you ever watched Schumy in the wet?

trackdayqueen said:

Well if you are aquaplaning then sure narrower tyres would be an advantage. There are way too many variables though to make sweeping generalisations. Also a FWD panda with only 100bhp is going to be a lot easier to handle than a RWD car with 300bhp isn't it really?

Nobody can corner a car effectively if there is so much standing water the car is aquaplaning. If the tyre can clear the water then i think you'll find that even F1 drivers can go pretty well. Have you ever watched Schumy in the wet?

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ok, the monsoon conditions are a bit extreme and hardly ever happen, but they happened that day so i guess it is believable that panda beat the others there

ruinin said:

ok, the monsoon conditions are a bit extreme and hardly ever happen, but they happened that day so i guess it is believable that panda beat the others there

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One fundamental point you are forgetting is that trackdays by definition are non-competitive. So its not racing.

So nobody 'beats' anyone on a trackday.

ruinin said:

ok, the monsoon conditions are a bit extreme and hardly ever happen, but they happened that day so i guess it is believable that panda beat the others there

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Honestly, please do not kid yourself. In terms of actual car ability it is not possible that the Panda would actually be quicker. The only reasons that a Panda driver would ever overtake are due to (as mentioned above) driver ability and cost of getting it wrong.

On a related note, I had some fun with a Scooby turbo this evening down a dry 5 mile stretch of nice twisty B roads. I was holding up a queue of traffic through a 30mph zone and clocked him overtaking the car behind as we entered a NSL so was expecting him to be flying past us next as I put my foot down. However, he seemed to be having a bit of trouble keeping up through the corners and wasn't able to reel us in enough on the straights to get himself into a decent overtaking position. Still, gave him a wave when he turned off and got a flash and a wave back so he clearly thought trying to keep pace with a lowly 100hp Panda had been fun and he'd not been held up too much

Chris

ScoobyChris said:

On a related note, I had some fun with a Scooby turbo this evening down a dry 5 mile stretch of nice twisty B roads. I was holding up a queue of traffic through a 30mph zone and clocked him overtaking the car behind as we entered a NSL so was expecting him to be flying past us next as I put my foot down. However, he seemed to be having a bit of trouble keeping up through the corners and wasn't able to reel us in enough on the straights to get himself into a decent overtaking position. Still, gave him a wave when he turned off and got a flash and a wave back so he clearly thought trying to keep pace with a lowly 100hp Panda had been fun and he'd not been held up too much

Chris

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