Hi everyone, first time posting on the punto section but thought this might be of some interest to someone. I've been working on cars as an for a good few years out of necessity rather than desire and have done head gaskets, gearboxes and quite a few cambelts etc over the years. Being a nice guy I offered to help a friend out and change her cambelt on a 1.2 8v. I read up and was happy to here even if you time up the car wrong the valves cant touch the pistons and once you retime it everything will be fine. I would usually mark up the crank and cam and the old belt whilst fitted then mark the new belt and simply swap over, however this time I took off the central bolt in the crank pulley by mistake and low-and-behold the cambelt was off and nothing was timed. Never mind, I timed up to what I thought where the timing marks and figured I'd give it a go by hand and see what happened. remembering that i couldn't do any damage to the valves even if I got it wrong.

This is where it gets messy.

It took a lot of effort to turn the engine over by hand, I now know this is because I had to put enough effort in to bend each of the exhaust valves in turn. It turns over lovely and freely on the key because I have absolutely no compression in any cylinder now. I don't know how to put photo's on here but if someone can explain I will put up pics of how bent the valves are.

The state of play now.

Currently have a friends car in pieces on my drive awaiting delivery of some new valves, feeling terrible for making an easy job into a week long slog and costing consideribly more than it should. Wife is not speaking to me as have spent two days so far working on car and ignoring her. Only saving grace it that mate is very understanding and hopefully once new head gasket valves etc are fitted the parts bill will be less than a cambelt change would have cost a garage anyway.

Lessons learnt.

1. when putting on cambelt make 100% sure timing marks are correct.
2. don't believe everything you read.
3. valves are really hard to get hold of, especially in a hurry.
4. working on friends cars is consideribly more stressful than working on your own.

That's strange there are no timing marks on the evo 2 fire engines they use a form of vvt on the exhaust valves to aid emission reduction as such the cam and crank should have been locked out using the dedicate locking kit

See my cam belt guide for more info

There is also the possibility that the car will need plugging in and a phonic wheel learn doing to reset the ecu to learn the position of the cam and crank

I did see your post and stupidly decided that i couldn't get hold of the locking kit so would time it just using the marks. Had a lot of conflicting advice and my local garage couldn't find any timing instructions for that engine. Could find advice for lots of other 1.2 8v fiats but not the engine code in my car 56 plate 1.2 grande punto. I was using (after my initial big mistake) the tdc mark viewable in the bell housing and the timing mark on the camshaft pulley, showing that both cams on cylinder 1 are up so both valves are closed. is this method not useable for this engine and do I now have to find a locking kit? cheers for advice in advance.

Andy Monty said:

That's strange there are no timing marks on the evo 2 fire engines they use a form of vvt on the exhaust valves to aid emission reduction as such the cam and crank should have been locked out using the dedicate locking kit

See my cam belt guide for more info

There is also the possibility that the car will need plugging in and a phonic wheel learn doing to reset the ecu to learn the position of the cam and crank

Click to expand...

The 1.2 8v didn't have the VVT (which operates on the single camshaft- and thus affects all 8 valves), well, not on the early cars anyway and was the easiest way to tell it apart from the similar 1.4.

Everyone always says the FIRE Evo is 'safe', but I could never find any confirmation in Fiat's Technical manuals, despite many an hour searching.

If the crank sprocket has been undone and removed, I'd thoroughly inspect it to ensure the built-in keyway hasn't been torn away- they're seemingly made of cheese and I've seen many broken upon removal, and if refitted in this state, will almost guarantee the valve and ignition timing is out.

I have learnt many lessons from being a fiat owner and a member of fiat forum but the best lesson learnt for me is check the guides in the guides section and more importantly when in doubt or lost all hope turn to Andy Monty.

Regards
Stephen

D4nny8oy said:

The 1.2 8v didn't have the VVT (which operates on the single camshaft- and thus affects all 8 valves), well, not on the early cars anyway and was the easiest way to tell it apart from the similar 1.4.

Everyone always says the FIRE Evo is 'safe', but I could never find any confirmation in Fiat's Technical manuals, despite many an hour searching.

If the crank sprocket has been undone and removed, I'd thoroughly inspect it to ensure the built-in keyway hasn't been torn away- they're seemingly made of cheese and I've seen many broken upon removal, and if refitted in this state, will almost guarantee the valve and ignition timing is out.

Click to expand...

How does the VVT work on the 1.4 with it been a single cam sprocket? is it driven by oil pressure?

has the 1.2 on the newer 500's got vvt? in a couple of years i have both my 1.4 evo and sisters 500 to do the belt, tensioner and water pump

SJB1985 said:

I have learnt many lessons from being a fiat owner and a member of fiat forum but the best lesson learnt for me is check the guides in the guides section and more importantly when in doubt or lost all hope turn to Andy Monty.

Regards
Stephen

Click to expand...

oh crap! i was always lead to think the evo 2 was safe but having seen dannys comments above im glad i changed my last cars belt early and bought the locking kit.....

The 1.2 was used in VVT form from 2007 onwards although the 1.2 without VVT was used right up until 2009 so I'm not sure if the GP used the 1.2 VVT's.
The 1.4 8v had VVT from 2005 and I believe (well I think so...) all 1.4 8v GP's have VVT.
In theory any 1.2 FIRE before 2007 should be a non interference engine, but I wouldn't have ever set the timing on someone else's car knowing it could be wrong.
At least this thread will now be somewhere for people to find that it's not a great idea to just trust that you won't bend any valves.

Andy Monty said:

How does the VVT work on the 1.4 with it been a single cam sprocket? is it driven by oil pressure?

has the 1.2 on the newer 500's got vvt? in a couple of years i have both my 1.4 evo and sisters 500 to do the belt, tensioner and water pump

Click to expand...

Yep, solenoid mounted in the rocker cover between the oil cap and breather pipe that controls oil flow into chambers in the cam sprocket to alter the valve timing under part load to keep some of the exhaust gases in the cylinder so it gets 'burnt' again to improve emissions (thus the EGR effect). It's purpose is not for power gains, unlike most VVT systems.

And yes, to confuse matters, the 500 has VVT on it's 1.2 8v.

BTW, I'm not saying the Evo isn't non-interference- only that I could never find any proof (and didn't want to risk a customer's engine in the pursuit of satisfying my curiosity, lol).

D4nny8oy said:

Yep, solenoid mounted in the rocker cover between the oil cap and breather pipe that controls oil flow into chambers in the cam sprocket to alter the valve timing under part load to keep some of the exhaust gases in the cylinder so it gets 'burnt' again to improve emissions (thus the EGR effect). It's purpose is not for power gains, unlike most VVT systems.

And yes, to confuse matters, the 500 has VVT on it's 1.2 8v.

BTW, I'm not saying the Evo isn't non-interference- only that I could never find any proof (and didn't want to risk a customer's engine in the pursuit of satisfying my curiosity, lol).

Click to expand...

so that's what the weird thing is that looks like a cam sensor :worship:


any issues with taking the rocker top off to check valve / tappet clearances at service time?


for those wondering what me and danny are talking about:

Glad my mistake can benefit someone rather than be a total disaster. My 1.2 8v does not have VVT. Removed the valves from the head today and have managed to bend all 8 to varying degrees. Would love to put some pictures up but no idea how. Any suggestions where I can get some valves other than fleabay?

Andy Monty said:

any issues with taking the rocker top off to check valve / tappet clearances at service time?

Click to expand...

No, just unplug it as you would any other sensor, and always fit a new rocker cover gasket- the camshaft and VVT solenoid oil feed now runs through the cover itself at the front edge (and is sealed by the gasket) rather than the spray bar of the old FIRE 8v.

Done 1.2 GP, ypsilon and 500's and I always time them up with the tools to lock the cam.

D4nny8oy said:

No, just unplug it as you would any other sensor, and always fit a new rocker cover gasket- the camshaft and VVT solenoid oil feed now runs through the cover itself at the front edge (and is sealed by the gasket) rather than the spray bar of the old FIRE 8v.

Click to expand...

T14086 said:

Done 1.2 GP, ypsilon and 500's and I always time them up with the tools to lock the cam.

Click to expand...

When refitting the cam cover do you use the cover aligning tool? on the vvt engine versions I think i have one floating about with my locking kit.

Andy Monty said:

When refitting the cam cover do you use the cover aligning tool? on the vvt engine versions I think i have one floating about with my locking kit.

Click to expand...

Yes, it was a recall on some models...doblo I think was one.