General There's no old-Croma forum!

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General There's no old-Croma forum!

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I just noticed that although there are forums for the Fiorino (surely just an Uno) and the Scudo (which I've never heard of), there appears to be no forum for the good old Croma! How can this be?!

I need a little help, please.
The speedometer doesn't go, in the example I'm working on, and I would like to know the colour of the wires that should be plugged in. It arrived with the sensor unplugged. The only wire I've found that will reach has red/black wires. The wiring diagram I've found (in Norwegian) appears to show a speedometer sensor with blue/white and black wires (AB and N), but I'm guessing because it's labelled only with a number.

The sensor has continuity so at this stage I'm thinking it may work correctly. As soon as I've managed to plug it in, I'll be able to test it with an oscilloscope (I hope) but hopefully, it will be working once connected.

Thanks,
-Alex
 
I remember it is possible to mix up the wiring for the speedo. Something elce can plug in there. The senders are a little unreliable. Is it 2 pin or 3 pin?
 
2-pin. Thanks for any help you can give! Wiring colours would be great... I have a feeling the wire I've plugged in (red/black) is for the headlamp washers :eek:

Incidentally, Morty Mort has confirmed what I suspected in that the sensor I found (with the blue/white wires) would be the engine RPM sensor for the diesel :eek: Neither of us can find any mention of the speedometer.

-Alex
 
Measure the resistance for a start. Its an inductive sensor so should output a low voltage AC signal. If you have a scope handy see what its doing. Even a AC mulitlmeter is good enough, if you can get 0,5V out of it it must be working.
 
Hello Alex.

I've been lookin through some Norwegian forums, but can't find any solution to the Croma speedo. But - there is pretty much about the Lancia Thema, which is a bit similiar to the Croma. The speedo sender / sensor seems to be a problem there as well, and I'll try to give som translated solutions here...

As I can find, there is a Fiat Croma 1995-96 model where the signal is behind the instrument panel, a 2-pin with no color. In this pin, there is a brown cable which has the speed signal. In models prior to 1995 this no-color pin should be at a control panel somewhere. The speed signal is also brown.

So now over to the Thema. There seems to be a problem with the km-counter which builds up current when the counter tries to turn from 9 to 0. The speedo needle would then pop straight to 240-300 km and then down to 0 again. This will in the end burn some electric circuits in the instrument panel. It must be dismantled and you have to search for the fault with a voltmeter, or you might see it.

There is also an electrical component which should stabilise the voltage out to the needle, which will get damaged over time due to the fault above.

To resolve the problem with the counter, you should remove the instrument panel, dismantle the speedo needle and remove the sheets underneath. Put some wd-40 (should be in every Fiat, so I assume you have one) on the counter, needle, and mechanical parts, to prevent this situation.
 
Thank you Steve and Morten,

Steve: happily I have a handheld-oscilloscope (staff purchase from Jaycar) which is just crying out for work like this. Unfortunately, without the sensor being plugged in to the right place, there won't be a signal to test! I guess I need to pull the instrument panel out and find the colour there.

Morten: you obviously found the same page that I did, making the reference to the colourless connector with the brown wire (the page listed how to find the speed-pulse signal on many different cars). The brown wire sounds easy enough to find - but what colour is it where it plugs into the sensor, I wonder... It's almost worth finding a Thema so that I can see what colour the wires are on that - they're probably the same.

The power surge caused by turning over the odometer sounds interesting. I had a faulty Croma speedometer before that was just a case of poor solder joints. Maybe this one is the same; but I have to wonder if someone else unplugged the sender or whether that was the problem all along...

-Alex
 
Alex, the sensor will ouput a signal without anything connected, Its a magnetic inductive sensor. You just need to spin the drive

I was thinking about getting one of the Jaycar oscilloscope. are they any good?
 
Steve,
I think the sensor will need to be powered to have a noticeable effect. I remember once hooking up an oscilloscope to a Croma sender (and a very good Tektronix oscilloscope at that!) and getting a very confusing single spike, noisy, which decayed exponentially. The scope auto-triggered, but it didn't really tell me whether it was correct or not. I was expecting a nice digital square-wave (I suppose 80's electronics are often not like that).

Nevertheless I will try, I guess as long as there's any sort of output (even a single spike) that probably means it's OK.

Right, now to discuss your question :)
A bench-oscilloscope from Jaycar is always good value but most are old-tech CRT scopes. I learned to use the Microtek digital-type at Uni - a computer samples the signals, takes the measurement, and gives you the figures you want to know... the display on the backlit LCD is only for a graphical idea of what's going on. There's even an auto-set button that acquires all the signal characteristics and sets the timescale & volts/division accordingly. Once you've learned with this type (i.e. not learned), it's hard to be bothered with a CRT type. Bit like getting a drivers' license for automatic-only.

I bought the handheld type mainly for the novelty of it and because it only cost me $160 or so, and because being a digital device I hoped it would have some of the capabilities of the Microtek units (which, incidentally, start at about $1800 educational-price, over $2000 retail).

It turns out there are two Velleman models mentioned in the manual; Jaycar sells the cheaper one. The display is quite limited in size and resolution, but that's OK because you're not having to read the measurements off the waveform. As with the Tektronix, the scope takes the samples and the measurement, and the display is for interest-only. However it means that even the figures displayed are tiny and the LCD is not backlit. The waveform is coarse and the LCD is quite slow. However, given the price, you can forgive all these problems considering that it gives you an insight into something you otherwise wouldn't see at all ;)

The probe is excellent-quality and the unit feels robust enough for workshop use (these things are probably important long-term). You'd have to watch that the five (!) AA batteries don't leak in disuse, though.

What is really nice is (as I alluded to before) the ability to press a button and see various measurements taken from the signal. Some of the measurements are quite advanced! For example (and this is great fun), you can connect to the speaker-outputs of a car stereo, with the speakers connected, crank the volume, and the scope gives you the actual power readings once you enter the (known) speaker impedance. This could be useful for troubleshooting sound quality, or comparing head unit vs. amplifier, etc. and discovering that "45W x 4" really means 18W.

The display has several possible layout settings (within the confines of the small LCD) so you should be able to see all the measurements you need. There's a memory capability, which I haven't used. There's even an 'Auto' button, so you really do get many of the Tektronix capabilities.

However, you would have to consider the bandwidth (sample rate)... the lesser model is much more limited than the more expensive model (that Jaycar don't sell).

To be specific, the manual says that the HPS10 has maximum bandwidth of 2MHz, with "sample rate of 10MS/s for repetitive signals, 2MS/s for single-shot events". I'm really not sure what those units mean! I think they mean million-samples per second, so if the signal goes high for 0.5ms (one 2000th of a second), it can read it. Or if the signal repeatedly goes high for 0.1ms (one 10000th of a second), it will catch it. That is a frequency of 10kHz - not very high! You won't be reading any computer data buses - and perhaps since you have specific knowledge of such, would you care to say whether the sensors of modern engine management work faster than this? (It wouldn't be an issue for things like the oxygen sensor of course, since those things switch at more like 1Hz...)

A standard bench oscilloscope has bandwidth of 20Mhz or 40Mhz (for many models), and so you'd expect the sample rate to be ten or twenty times higher.

The more expensive Velleman handheld model, HPS40 (if you could get it) has bandwidth of 12MHz (40MS/s repetitive, 10MS/s single-shot). It also has interfacing capabilities, which might be useful if you wanted to log values while driving.

In short, the Velleman HPS10 (like I bought) has limited capabilities but is a robust and well-made instrument - it feels trustworthy and the documentation is excellent - meets relevant approvals. It doesn't feel at all like the dodgy multimeters that Jaycar sells :) I think that it is a lot better than nothing in trying to assess the output of sensors etc. For example, the LCD would show the spikes in a 'noisy' flap-type AFM, where a digital multimeter would find this difficult. And, the 'Auto' button would have you up and running, when you'd still be twiddling the knobs on one of those CRT units (which always remind me of the WWII radar sets my grandfather worked on...)

Cheers,
-Alex
 
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Hello...

being a proud owner of a 1992 fiat croma TDid I also do not understand how can this forum not have a croma section:cry:
 
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