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Old 29-05-2017   #1
Join Date: Jul 2016
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Poland 
2nd gear issue and loose gearbox gear change mechanism

Hello again guys!

I am starting to suspect my B. hates me. Just as the season started my issues with putting in 2nd gear intensified. It started with reluctant engaging 2nd gear, but now it is almost impossible to engage it without the terrible sound, but even if that was successful the gear does fully sits in and pops out unless the gear stick is held in place.

So immediately I started to suspect to worn clutch, worn gears synchronizers, busted engine/gearbox mount and gear shifting mechanism. I could not confirm the mounts or reject other things. So I started to poke around and found that the shaft that goes into the gearbox and is responsible for gear change is pretty loose and moves about with clanking sound coming from inside the box. Took it to the garage and they also suspected this to be the problem. The garage would change it BUT they could not find replacement parts. At this points they could not guarantee it is the only cause, but recommended to look for the parts by myself and check with the FIAT dealership if they had them. No luck - they do not sell the parts in an assembly and I need to start ordering the parts piece by piece.

Here's a scheme of what goes where:



The shaft (1) moves around but also moves up and down. Up and down movement realizes the gear stick motion from left (1st, 2nd gears) through neutral center to right (5th and reverse). The rotation realizes the rear to front gear stick motion (1st or 2nd gear for instance). The shaft is pretty loose when I move it around with my hand (not while pressing up and down).

The (13) is a o-ring type of gasket. The (3) and (15) are what FIAT calls spacers and my bet is that the two spacers together with springs (14) & (2) are responsible for up and down motion.

By the look of it, the (11) could be a bushing and it is bolted to the gear box case, the shaft goes into it. So, my guess is that this where the shaft got loose - maybe the bushing and the corresponding shaft surface just worn out. However, judged by the fact that the problem with 2nd gear just got worse in 20 km of driving makes me feel uneasy about starting hunting for the parts, order them and start replacing based on a hunch.

Another thing is that at the end of the shaft there is a spline that most like goes into the (4) and it is tightened by bolt (9) and rotation around the shaft is taken away by the pin (10). This surprises me, I thought one could replace the whole thing by undoing the two bolts and pulling out the entire assembly of the shaft. If I were to trust the sizes on the pic, it would seem that the (4) is bigger than (11) and therefore it won't go through the hole that (11) fits into on the gearbox case.

Have anyone had experience with FIAT gearboxes? Can you advise if it is possible to remove the whole thing through the hole I mentioned? Am I on the right track here?

And... a movie I made to show you how does it look like (the broken rubber covers... ugh!)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6...kE3dGdaMDd3YTg

Michal
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Last edited by MichalM; 29-05-2017 at 20:03. Reason: Issue with link to pic.
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Old 01-06-2017   #2
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Newcastle-under-Lyme
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United Kingdom 
Re: 2nd gear issue and loose gearbox gear change mechanism

Sorry, that I can not help (its far beyond my skills). I see that someone on the Barchetta.pl site as offered some help. I'm hopefully in Warsaw in the next few weeks perhaps we could meet up. I am stopping in ul Krolewska which is very central. Brian


Quote Originally Posted by MichalM View Post
Hello again guys!

I am starting to suspect my B. hates me. Just as the season started my issues with putting in 2nd gear intensified. It started with reluctant engaging 2nd gear, but now it is almost impossible to engage it without the terrible sound, but even if that was successful the gear does fully sits in and pops out unless the gear stick is held in place.

So immediately I started to suspect to worn clutch, worn gears synchronizers, busted engine/gearbox mount and gear shifting mechanism. I could not confirm the mounts or reject other things. So I started to poke around and found that the shaft that goes into the gearbox and is responsible for gear change is pretty loose and moves about with clanking sound coming from inside the box. Took it to the garage and they also suspected this to be the problem. The garage would change it BUT they could not find replacement parts. At this points they could not guarantee it is the only cause, but recommended to look for the parts by myself and check with the FIAT dealership if they had them. No luck - they do not sell the parts in an assembly and I need to start ordering the parts piece by piece.

Here's a scheme of what goes where:



The shaft (1) moves around but also moves up and down. Up and down movement realizes the gear stick motion from left (1st, 2nd gears) through neutral center to right (5th and reverse). The rotation realizes the rear to front gear stick motion (1st or 2nd gear for instance). The shaft is pretty loose when I move it around with my hand (not while pressing up and down).

The (13) is a o-ring type of gasket. The (3) and (15) are what FIAT calls spacers and my bet is that the two spacers together with springs (14) & (2) are responsible for up and down motion.

By the look of it, the (11) could be a bushing and it is bolted to the gear box case, the shaft goes into it. So, my guess is that this where the shaft got loose - maybe the bushing and the corresponding shaft surface just worn out. However, judged by the fact that the problem with 2nd gear just got worse in 20 km of driving makes me feel uneasy about starting hunting for the parts, order them and start replacing based on a hunch.

Another thing is that at the end of the shaft there is a spline that most like goes into the (4) and it is tightened by bolt (9) and rotation around the shaft is taken away by the pin (10). This surprises me, I thought one could replace the whole thing by undoing the two bolts and pulling out the entire assembly of the shaft. If I were to trust the sizes on the pic, it would seem that the (4) is bigger than (11) and therefore it won't go through the hole that (11) fits into on the gearbox case.

Have anyone had experience with FIAT gearboxes? Can you advise if it is possible to remove the whole thing through the hole I mentioned? Am I on the right track here?

And... a movie I made to show you how does it look like (the broken rubber covers... ugh!)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6...kE3dGdaMDd3YTg

Michal
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Old 18-06-2017   #3
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Germany 
Re: 2nd gear issue and loose gearbox gear change mechanism

Hi MichalM, sorry I can't help either, but did you manage to fix it? and if so how? - Stu
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Old 06-07-2017   #4
Join Date: Jul 2016
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Poland 
Re: 2nd gear issue and loose gearbox gear change mechanism

Hi Guys,

Yeah I have finally managed to fix it. I had couple of other things on mind and waited long to make sure the fix was final.

Brian - thanks for the offer, but by the time you proposed to help I have already decide I need to remove the gearbox and find a garage that would take a job of repairing it.

Let me share with you my findings about the gearbox itself first and then I will describe what was the issue and what it took to repair it.

For lack of technical names of the parts I will use the parts numbering from my previous post. So finally, I was able to confirm that in the B. gearbox it is not possible to remove the element "1" and its assembly without disassembling the entire gearbox case. That meant removing the box and it costs. I was almost ready to buy second hand box, but I decided not to. First of all I could not confirm year and mileage of the boxes and had no idea how to test it. Interesting enough, B. gearboxes sellers did not care to tell these details, but... alfa boxes and stilo 1.8 boxes were entirely different story... they knew mileage and year (trusting them was a different story).

In the pic below you can see the bolt (9):



I think gearboxes from Alfa 1.8 or Stilo 1.8 would fit BUT there are some small differences. Mounts seem to look the same so someone brave could try to fit it. There is difference in how clutch operation is achieved (D in the sketch below). From what I found, Barchetta and Punto HGT had this done by lever arm and a clutch cable. Alfa gearboxes (please correct me here, I just found couple of boxes) had a hydraulic clutch disengaging mechanism and Stilo did too but it looked slightly different. The other difference is the bolt pattern in the flange A. I think that the flange A can be detached from case B . Eventually, I decided to repair the one I have removed from the car.



Called a couple of gearbox repair shops and they either did not want to take the job, being afraid that there would be no spare parts, or were giving me a mad price for the disassembling it. Even a FIAT authorized garage turned me down.

Eventually, I was able to find one place that deals with gearboxes and was not scared to take it in. Through the phone they were able to confirm that it might be possible to fit some other fiat parts (DUH!).

It turns out the issue was very typical: 2nd gear synchronizers were worn and 1st gear synchronizers was about to cease to be. The element "1" that I suspected was not the issue, but it is a mystery to me how changing the synchronizers has made it work a bit tighter again.

The whole repair took me one month. Have been driving now for some time and it seems the issue is fixed for good.

Hope this helps everyone who tries to troubleshoot on their own.

Michal
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Old 14-07-2017   #5
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Germany 
Re: 2nd gear issue and loose gearbox gear change mechanism

Thanks for the follow up! Great that you took the time to do the write up, and pleased you found a fix!
Stu
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