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General 500c Abarth? Any evidence?

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General 500c Abarth? Any evidence?

306maxi

306maxi

STOP! Hammer time!
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This model seems to be coming up in a few threads and with seemingly little evidence other than the say so of the veritable automotive bibles that are Autocar and AutoExpress. Someone today even said it was only a few months away from release.

I was just wondering if anyone has any actual evidence that this car actually exists as in spy shots etc etc? I know Fiat does virtual testing on their cars but months before an Abarth 500c is rolling off the production line there need to be cars out there testing suspension settings etc and there are no spy shots of the 500c Abarth AFAIK.

I'll eat my hat if this thing ever gets made and if it does it'll either be horrible to drive or heavy with craptastic performance.

As always willing to be proven wrong though ;)(y)
 
306maxi said:
This model seems to be coming up in a few threads and with seemingly little evidence other than the say so of the veritable automotive bibles that are Autocar and AutoExpress. Someone today even said it was only a few months away from release.

I was just wondering if anyone has any actual evidence that this car actually exists as in spy shots etc etc? I know Fiat does virtual testing on their cars but months before an Abarth 500c is rolling off the production line there need to be cars out there testing suspension settings etc and there are no spy shots of the 500c Abarth AFAIK.

I'll eat my hat if this thing ever gets made and if it does it'll either be horrible to drive or heavy with craptastic performance.

As always willing to be proven wrong though ;)(y)
Click to expand...


the 500c abarth would be to the abarth what the 500c is to the standard 500- not much heavier, very similar performance-

so it wouldnt be slow, and not sure why it would be horrible to drive!..you reviewed a 500c today and liked it more than the standard one you own!

lets at least have some consistency please maxi!
 
keeforelli said:
the 500c abarth would be to the abarth what the 500c is to the standard 500- not much heavier, very similar performance-

so it wouldnt be slow, and not sure why it would be horrible to drive!..you reviewed a 500c today and liked it more than the standard one you own!

lets at least have some consistency please maxi!
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As I said above it would have to be heavier to stiffen up the shell because the shell isn't as rigid. As I also said in my first post you can feel scuttle shake (a common problem with convertibles) through the steering wheel and with a heavier engine, bigger wheels, stiffer shocks and dampers it's only going to get worse.

Consistency is not simply saying "The 500c was great so an Abarth 500c would also be great", consistency is taking my experience today and thinking of what an A500c would be like with the modifications which would have to be done to it. Mini had to add 100kg's to the weight of the Mini Cooper to get the shell to be rigid on a car like the 500 100kg's is a lot of weight and will significantly dent performance.
 
306maxi said:
As I said above it would have to be heavier to stiffen up the shell because the shell isn't as rigid. As I also said in my first post you can feel scuttle shake (a common problem with convertibles) through the steering wheel and with a heavier engine, bigger wheels, stiffer shocks and dampers it's only going to get worse.

Consistency is not simply saying "The 500c was great so an Abarth 500c would also be great", consistency is taking my experience today and thinking of what an A500c would be like with the modifications which would have to be done to it. Mini had to add 100kg's to the weight of the Mini Cooper to get the shell to be rigid on a car like the 500 100kg's is a lot of weight and will significantly dent performance.
Click to expand...

I very much doubt the 500c is 100kg heavier than the 500 hatch
 
Chris123 said:
You used the mini as a comparison, and stated that it was 100kg heavier than the hatch. Why even bother mentioning the mini if you think the comparison isn't valid?
Click to expand...
I merely said that Mini had to add 100kg's to get the Cooper rigidish (lots of people and sites still complain about scuttle shake) and said that 100kg's is a huge amount of weight to be adding to the 500. The standard 500 is 40kg's lighter than the c and a 500c Abarth would have to be heavier still so 100kg's is not a silly ballpark figure.

Funny thing is no one has yet provided anything near firm evidence of the A500c's existence, funny that :)
 
306maxi said:
I merely said that Mini had to add 100kg's to get the Cooper rigidish (lots of people and sites still complain about scuttle shake) and said that 100kg's is a huge amount of weight to be adding to the 500. The standard 500 is 40kg's lighter than the c and a 500c Abarth would have to be heavier still so 100kg's is not a silly ballpark figure.

Funny thing is no one has yet provided anything near firm evidence of the A500c's existence, funny that :)
Click to expand...

If the differrence between a base spec 500 and 500c is only 40kg, the difference between higher spec models (with the same equipment levels) will also be 40kg.
If (and its a big if, I agree) an abarth version were to be made I can't see fiat going to the expense of engineering a completely new shell, so the difference would still be 40kg. Any thought of additional bracing for a car with only an extra 30ps seems a bit unlikely to me.
Personally, i believe fiat would be better off producing a more luxurious version of the 500c than an abarth. Perhaps one with the 120ps 1.4 from the GP and pliant sustension would be more desireable.
The cost of a 500c abarth would also be prohibitive, I reckon. If they carried over the £2.5-3k loading they've put on the 500c there would be far more desirable alternatives
 
Chris123 said:
If the differrence between a base spec 500 and 500c is only 40kg, the difference between higher spec models (with the same equipment levels) will also be 40kg.
Click to expand...

As I said if they make an Abarth version it will need extra strengthening to the chassis to resist torsional flexing. I should have clarified earlier it's not the same sort of flex you get in say a Saab 900 convertible where it does flex like a banana and the car kind of sags.


Chris123 said:
If (and its a big if, I agree) an abarth version were to be made I can't see fiat going to the expense of engineering a completely new shell, so the difference would still be 40kg. Any thought of additional bracing for a car with only an extra 30ps seems a bit unlikely to me.
Personally, i believe fiat would be better off producing a more luxurious version of the 500c than an abarth. Perhaps one with the 120ps 1.4 from the GP and pliant sustension would be more desireable.
The cost of a 500c abarth would also be prohibitive, I reckon. If they carried over the £2.5-3k loading they've put on the 500c there would be far more desirable alternatives
Click to expand...

I quite agree with you. The 500c is certainly more geared towards being a luxury car and making it into a sporty car kind of goes a little against the design. As you say if they carry across the price premium they start getting into Mini territory and what are most people going to buy? A BMW or a Fiat?
 
DraigFlag87 said:
Now who's asking the silly questions? :p Why don't you ask all those who have switched from a Mini to a 500, or an A500 for that matter. There are plenty of them (and a few Porsche drivers downgrading to an A500 too (y))
Click to expand...
I was on a Subaru forum the other day and a few of them had bought 911's. What's your point? People switch cars all the time and of course they always think the new car is better unless it's a complete lemon.
 
I like the idea of a hotshot 500c, but the detail design is going to keep the FEA engineers busy for a while. The putative Abarth 500c is going to put more dynamic load into the shell from accelerations as a consequence of the extra torque from the motor and the anticipated driver induced sideways loads. These loads will be fed in via harder springs controlled by firmer dampers to broadly the same chassis hard points as the regular cabrio.

Accordingly, the shell will need to be stiffer than the 'comfort' cabrio. This will have some impact on the mass of the shell as extra stiffening members are probably the least cost way for a manufacturer to accomplish increased strength. Tooling changes to change the shape of an existing floorpan might be the most elegant engineering solution, but boy is that expensive. Don't forget also that while one is changing a production line one is not making cars!

The existing cabrio almost certainly has good rigidity front to back courtesy of retaining the B & C pillars and the cant rails, just like the Citroen 2CV. Snipping out the roof is going to compromise the torsional rigidity though so I expect some 'add-ons' will be present in the floorpan and bulkheads to help with this. Assuming the screen is bonded in, this contributes a bit as well.

'True' convertibles, those cars with nowt but a windscreen are bound to twist and flex more, unless one welds the doors shut, hence the scuttle shake of minis, SAABs or pretty well any other car not originally designed as a rag top.

If a comic of the stature of Autocar is suggesting a thing might happen, I suppose it's more likely than not, but I would guess that there aren't any Abarth cabrios outside of a computer program or secure research centre just yet.

Don't forget these are only my individual musings prompted by the other contributors and have no more importance than any other bar room chat!:)
 
eribiste said:
I like the idea of a hotshot 500c, but the detail design is going to keep the FEA engineers busy for a while. The putative Abarth 500c is going to put more dynamic load into the shell from accelerations as a consequence of the extra torque from the motor and the anticipated driver induced sideways loads. These loads will be fed in via harder springs controlled by firmer dampers to broadly the same chassis hard points as the regular cabrio.

Accordingly, the shell will need to be stiffer than the 'comfort' cabrio. This will have some impact on the mass of the shell as extra stiffening members are probably the least cost way for a manufacturer to accomplish increased strength. Tooling changes to change the shape of an existing floorpan might be the most elegant engineering solution, but boy is that expensive. Don't forget also that while one is changing a production line one is not making cars!

The existing cabrio almost certainly has good rigidity front to back courtesy of retaining the B & C pillars and the cant rails, just like the Citroen 2CV. Snipping out the roof is going to compromise the torsional rigidity though so I expect some 'add-ons' will be present in the floorpan and bulkheads to help with this. Assuming the screen is bonded in, this contributes a bit as well.

'True' convertibles, those cars with nowt but a windscreen are bound to twist and flex more, unless one welds the doors shut, hence the scuttle shake of minis, SAABs or pretty well any other car not originally designed as a rag top.

If a comic of the stature of Autocar is suggesting a thing might happen, I suppose it's more likely than not, but I would guess that there aren't any Abarth cabrios outside of a computer program or secure research centre just yet.

Don't forget these are only my individual musings prompted by the other contributors and have no more importance than any other bar room chat!:)
Click to expand...

All very valid points :)

I especially like this one

eribiste said:
Accordingly, the shell will need to be stiffer than the 'comfort' cabrio. This will have some impact on the mass of the shell as extra stiffening members are probably the least cost way for a manufacturer to accomplish increased strength. Tooling changes to change the shape of an existing floorpan might be the most elegant engineering solution, but boy is that expensive. Don't forget also that while one is changing a production line one is not making cars!
Click to expand...

When you've got full order books you'd be silly to retool and slow your flow of income.
 
306maxi said:
This model seems to be coming up in a few threads and with seemingly little evidence other than the say so of the veritable automotive bibles that are Autocar and AutoExpress. Someone today even said it was only a few months away from release.

I was just wondering if anyone has any actual evidence that this car actually exists...
Click to expand...

It is now listed as a model on the vehicle locator we use (although it is not available to order, and there are no actual cars available yet) so it is definitely happening, soon :D
 
Scrogg said:
It is now listed as a model on the vehicle locator we use (although it is not available to order, and there are no actual cars available yet) so it is definitely happening, soon :D
Click to expand...
I know :( Egg on my face :p

It'll be rubbish though :p
 
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