Hello

I own a 2015 500x cross with halogen headlights. Can they be swapped with bi-xenon ones?
Perhaps some kind of proxi alignment is needed. I am not familiar with this procedure at such a new car (I have done it at my 2008 Fiat Panda with just an ELM interface and mes, no colored adapters etc). I have seen many people here complaining about elm problems and proxi alignment so I don't want to mess things up. What do you recommend? Buy special adapter and interface? Or ask a dealer?

Thanks in advance
Wishing you a happy new year!!

Much more complicated than a simple swap.

Legislation requires zenon lamps to have automatic levelling. Ths is done with a sensor connected to one suspension bottom arm, often having a bespoke arm, not just an added bracket or hole drilled.
So as well as the headlamps, you'd need a suspension arm, connecting rod, sensor, wiring, control box if such a thing exists.
Then as you've said, the ECU may need an update, as the currents drawn will be different, so the bulb sensing will be upset. It is unlikely that the necessary programming is in your ECU, so that might be a big problem.
A crashed donor car could supply everything you need, but this might have to include the ECU. That would mean both engine and body ECUs, and the full set of locks and keys, as immobiliser data is in both ECUs.
Crashed cars mostly do front end damage, so finding a crashed zenon car with rear end damage might be a challenge. (Unless you spot one and can run it off the road backwards.)

Might be easier to keep the windscreen and headlamps as clean as possible, and drive a little slower when dark.

The whole headlamp unit will require replacing as with Bi-Xenon the Hi-Lo beam is done via a solenoid flap/mirror assembly. you will have the old Halogen-H4-60/55W dual filament bulbs.

You probably know this but I mention for others.

Cable end/bulb connectors will certainly be different and possibly a different front end wiring loom.

Nothing is impossible but it will be an expensive mod.

You are probably better off replacing the Halogen H4 bubs with LED replacements however I would check with your insurance company if they are happy to underwrite this modification. But this will be a four stage process if you want to do it properly/legally.

1) Check with Ins. company in principle saying that you will be doing stage 3)
2) Get some LED replacements (prices vary from £30 to over £100 per pair) and check they work and the vehicle is happy with them
3) Go to a garage and get them to do an MOT beam pattern test. They will be able to quickly confirm (without adjusting your headlamps if the low and high beam patterns are correct and should be able to be adjusted. If so get them to do the work and get a written receipt.
4) Back to insurance company for their final WRITTEN approval with the modification noted on your Schedule of Insurance.

Belts and braces would be step 3) followed by MOT then step 4)

Off course the insurance compay may request that you get a full Basic Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) or a Normal IVA.

Word or warning! Although your existing insurance company may be happy with the change there is no guarantee that any other will be. So, if/when you change insurance companies you will have to ensure that they will insure/cover the LED conversion.

Hi,
There are NO LED replacement headlamp "bulbs" that are road legal in the EU or UK.
Passing an MOT does not make it legal. The lamps and bulbs must be E marked and there are no relevent standards for LED replacement bulbs so they can't be E marked (even if they somehow met the H standard for filament bulbs).

Robert G8RPI.

Hi
Here you go again!
I've see loads of car programmes on TV when doing mods and one being Led headlight conversions with no DO NOT DO disclaimer
I've been running led headlights since they were first available with NO mot issues as the beam pattern has been spot on
Watch a program on Sky called VINTAGE VOLTAGE, were thay convert old and new petrol cars to full electric one being a fiat 500, all there conversions include led lighting all round
The company doing the conversions has been going over 10 years and are based in Wales
They are all road legal so how can you say they are not
Luigi

g8rpi said:

Hi,
There are NO LED replacement headlamp "bulbs" that are road legal in the EU or UK.
Passing an MOT does not make it legal. The lamps and bulbs must be E marked and there are no relevent standards for LED replacement bulbs so they can't be E marked (even if they somehow met the H standard for filament bulbs).

Robert G8RPI.

Click to expand...

If the beam pattern is wrong it will fail an mot
Because there is no legislation on these bulbs they can't be illegal E marked or not

READ WHAT I WROTE!!
I did not say LED replacement headlights are illegal, I said replacment bulb are illegal.
A complete replacement headlight (or other external light) which is E marked is legal. For Vintage cars with round headlights it's easy because you can get "sealed beam" LED replacements. These have integral light source, reflector and lens so can be E marked as a complete unit. Vintge cars do not have to comply with the same regulations as modern ones. Note that none of the exterior LED lights on production cars have removable LEDs. The only exterior light you can put a LED replacement "bulb" in legally is the reversing light.
Being on TV does not make it legal.
Passing an MOT does not not make it legal
If you hve LED replacement "bulbs" in OEM lights on your car it is not road legal, getting away with it so far does not make it legal.


Robert G8RPI.

2668GRIFFIN said:

If the beam pattern is wrong it will fail an mot
Because there is no legislation on these bulbs they can't be illegal E marked or not

Click to expand...

The MOT does not make a full assesment of the light output and it is not a type approval test.
All replacement mandatory external lights on a modern car and any replacement "bulbs" have to be E marked to be legal. There are individual country aprovals that can be used in their respective countries, but in practice they are seldom used.

Robert G8RPI.

Everyone fitting these bulbs is getting away with it
Police don't no or care, mot not bothered, shops selling them not prosecute even my insurance company weren't bothered
Just admit YOU hate led bulbs even though they are better brighter and more efficient
You can preach till the cows come home with all your legal (Debatable) views
At the end of the day they have not been made illegal in the road traffic act its just there is no E mark
If it were as you say then an mot would fail these lights, the same as if you had a dim or fauly bulb
Luigi

Thanks for your answers. Actually I live in Greece where insurance companies don't bother even for extreme tuning. The reason I want to upgrade to hid is the projector thing, not the lamp. I used to own an 159 with hids and I miss the clean, shadow free lighting.
I would like to get access to some kind of workshop manual (like old eper) to see with my eyes the actual wiring harness differences but as far as I know it's online since 2013

zisisv said:

Thanks for your answers. Actually I live in Greece where insurance companies don't bother even for extreme tuning. The reason I want to upgrade to hid is the projector thing, not the lamp. I used to own an 159 with hids and I miss the clean, shadow free lighting.
I would like to get access to some kind of workshop manual (like old eper) to see with my eyes the actual wiring harness differences but as far as I know it's online since 2013

Click to expand...

As Portland Bill said, it is much more than just changing the headlamp units. As a minimum you will also have to fit a suspension sensor and if fitted to the factory HID cars, headlamp washers. Find a local auto electrical specialist and see if they have accessto the schematics and parts list. They may let you look at them.


Robert G8RPI.

2668GRIFFIN said:

Everyone fitting these bulbs is getting away with it
Police don't no or care, mot not bothered, shops selling them not prosecute even my insurance company weren't bothered
Just admit YOU hate led bulbs even though they are better brighter and more efficient
You can preach till the cows come home with all your legal (Debatable) views
At the end of the day they have not been made illegal in the road traffic act its just there is no E mark
If it were as you say then an mot would fail these lights, the same as if you had a dim or fauly bulb
Luigi

Click to expand...

Well you are wrong again.

Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act makes it an offence to use a vehicle on the road which does not coform to the construction and use regulations. The C&U regs inter-alia require conformance with the road vehicle lighting regulations and ECE (E mark) regulations. Section 54 of RTA also requires conformance with type approval requirements.
Ye, I know there is little or no enforcement, but that does not make them legal.

I don't hate LED lights, I think they are great and have them on my car, including headlights. They are however integral, type approved and E marked lights, not replacement bulbs.
I'm not even that bothered about people fitting illegal lights to their cars.
What I don't like is people saying it is OK or legal when it is not. People who ask questions on the forum should be given accurate information so they can make an informed decsion on modifications and the possible impact of the legality and insurance of their vehicle.


I'm not entering further discussion on this.

Robert G8RPI.

g8rpi said:

Well you are wrong again.

What I don't like is people saying it is OK or legal when it is not.
Robert G8RPI.

Click to expand...

Well just for the record you will see in many of my past posts re: LED bulbs that I have said they were not legal. Indeed I'm the person who did all the research into the legality of the reversing bulb.

And, you will recall I was hammered (like you were g8rpi).

So this time I refrained from the outright "illegal" arguement (probably a mistake) and tried to be a little more lenient (if that is the appropriate word).

Yes, time to move on.

s130 said:

Well just for the record you will see in many of my past posts re: LED bulbs that I have said they were not legal. Indeed I'm the person who did all the research into the legality of the reversing bulb.



And, you will recall I was hammered (like you were g8rpi).



So this time I refrained from the outright "illegal" arguement (probably a mistake) and tried to be a little more lenient (if that is the appropriate word).



Yes, time to move on.

Click to expand...

I think there is little doubt that you and g8rpi are correct.

Sections 4 and 5 The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 state that headlamp bulbs MUST bear an Approval Mark

"approval mark” means either–

(a)a marking designated as an approval mark by regulation 5 of the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations and shown at item 12 or 13 or 14 or 16 or, in the case of a vehicle having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph, 27 or 28 of Schedule 4 to those Regulations, or

(b)a marking designated as an approval mark by regulation 4 of the Designation of Approval Marks Regulations and shown at item 1A or 1B or 1C or 1E or 5A or 5B or 5C or 5E or 8C or 8D or 8E or 8F or 8G or 8H or 8K or 8L or 20C or 20D or 20E or 20F or 20G or 20H or 20K or 20L or 31A or 31C or, in the case of a vehicle having a maximum speed not exceeding 25 mph, 1H or 1I or 5H or 5I of Schedule 2 to those Regulations"

Therefore, in my humble opinion, bulbs not bearing an E mark are ILLEGAL and if they get through an MOT that does not make them legal, you have just been fortunate.

Well thanks for that view support.

Often in these forums it is very difficult to strike that balance between offerring strict engineering detail (which could be illegal in any other country if implement), offering more general information, etc. etc.

AND as in my post where I detailed the practicalities of retro HID fitting it is very easy to get to get drawn (with good intent) into alternative potentially technically achievable alternative solutions (legal or otherwise).

I did mention the UK Basic Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) or a Normal IVA testing I would like to think that theses tests conform and test to the relevant legal regulations including "E"/other markings. If not then the tests are not fit for purpose as they are allowing/certifying a vehicle to be UK road legal.

If my vehicle used illegal (unkonown to me) bulbs but passed the IVA then this would be a very interesting court case. I can guess the outcome. I would be exonourated but the IVA test would be required to apply the neccessary ammendments. Pure speculation and your outcome may be defined by the size of your wallet.

2668GRIFFIN said:

Everyone fitting these bulbs is getting away with it
Police don't no or care, mot not bothered, shops selling them not prosecute even my insurance company weren't bothered

Click to expand...

Getting away with something doesn’t mean it’s either A) Safe of B) Legal.

They’ll also only be getting away with it until caught.

The police are under resourced, simply means they have to priorities accordingly, not that they don’t care. MOT has been addressed by others. Selling them isn’t illegal, just like it isn’t illegal to buy or sell cannabis production equipment.

Just accept that it’s you who’s both selfish towards other road users, and in the wrong

g8rpi said:

As Portland Bill said, it is much more than just changing the headlamp units. As a minimum you will also have to fit a suspension sensor and if fitted to the factory HID cars, headlamp washers. Find a local auto electrical specialist and see if they have accessto the schematics and parts list. They may let you look at them.


Robert G8RPI.

Click to expand...

The topic turned out to be even more interesting.
After some research I discovered that Bi-xenon factoey-fitted 500x has d5s bulbs. A quite recent setup with the ballast integrated into the bulb, with 2000 lumens of brightness (25 watts). The bulb itself actually gets simple 12 volt current. That means it has neither suspension sensors (no auto leveling) nor washers (because of low power). It's a cheaper design. However 2000 lumens is not much more powerful than good halogens but they can be upgraded to 35w d5s bulbs or even LEDs.
The real reason I want to upgrade the headlight units is the projector itself. Many of you mentioned about replacing halogen bulbs with led. Led lighting is the future but classic mirror headlights is just a bunch of crap, no matter what type of bulb you use. They just produce an uneven light beam and dazzle others.
So my intention is to place a CAN decoder between H4 factory plug and d5s plug (3 pin common automotive plug) but I can't find a can decoder that leads to 3 pin plug, only classic ones with 2 pin ballast power/2 pin hi-low signal.
What do you think? Does the D5s bulb 3 pin plug use the classic halogen pattern? (1 pin for low beam, 1 for high beam and 1 for ground?)
Thanks in advance

The D5s (25W 2000 lumen) is a critical factor. Above 2000 lumen output then in the UK/EU then light unit MUST be self levelling AND incoprate an outer lens cleaning mechanism.

I don't think putting puting a CAN decoder in circuit is going to be of any value as I believe no CAN signalling is involved. All I suspect that has been done is to use the traditional Lo-Beam power wire to drive the D5S main power and the Hi-Beam supply to operate the internal beam changer flap.

There may be a body computer change required as well but you can possibly visually check this out yourself.

On earlier Fiats when you switched from Lo to Hi beam the low beam bulb element was powered down and the Hi beam element powered up.

On my Croma 2005 model when switching for Lo to Hi then BOTH filaments were energised.

You can check your 500X to see what actually happens buy visual inspection (NOTE NEVER LOOK DIRECTLY AT THE BULB. Place translucent greese proof paper over the outer lens cover to obseserve) or better still by using a voltmeter or current clamp.

Some More Info (official):

Exterior lighting
The vehicle is equipped with 70 mm double headlights to increase the light intensity and consequently
improve visibility in all conditions.
When, on the other hand, it is equipped with Bi-Xenon lighting technology (high/low lighting via single
high-intensity discharge (HID) bulb), there is twice as much light compared to the use of conventional
bulbs, and the 70 mm headlight increases the light intensity by approximately 15% and the lighting
depth by approximately 20%.
Infrared halogen bulbs are used on the basic versions of the vehicle. The bulbs incorporate a special
coating that brings the inside of the capsule to higher temperatures than conventional halogen bulbs,
thus providing more light.

Headlights
Infrared halogen bulbs are used on the basic versions of the vehicle. The bulbs incorporate a special
coating that brings the inside of the capsule to higher temperatures than conventional halogen bulbs,
thus providing more light.
Equipped with H4 60/55 W-type halogen bulb.

BI-XENON version headlights
The vehicle can be equipped with headlights that use Bi-Xenon technology.
The headlights are fitted with next-generation D5S 25W bulbs. The use of these bulbs, despite a lower
brightness compared to a 35 W Bi-Xenon bulb, results in a considerable improvement in terms of
lighting system complexity, because there are no self-levelling headlight or headlight washer systems,
and ballast is not used

I've looked at the basic wiring for both headlight types and there appears to be no dirrerence. Both systems are are driven off the body computer (BCM) with the same basic Earth, Lo-Beam, Hi-Beam setup. So if there is any operation differences then (e.g. Hi-Beam still keeps Lo-Beam feed powered) this will be done via the BCM and the relevan PROXY setting.

I can confirm that the 500x I had was factory fitted with bi-xenon headlamps, with no self levelling or headlamp wash.