Technical Clutch failure @ 12,000 miles

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Technical Clutch failure @ 12,000 miles

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I`ve just had a phonecall from a someone with a year old 1.2 500 thats just gone over the 12000 mile mark, to say the clutch has failed & its slipping badly.

I havent seen it yet, but I`m guessing its master or slave cylinder as the failure was accompanied by a popping sound.

Is this the same as the Corsa? as in the slave cylinders inside the bellhousing, meaning the whole gearbox had to be removed to get at it?

I know the GP shares alot of parts with the Corsa, is this one of them?

For the record he isnt a driver that rests his foot on the clutch or someone who steams around like his hair is on fire...

Anyone else had clutch issues?
 
Hydraulic seals maybe? I had this happen to mine. It felt like the clutch was slipping on the drive into work. Then that night I couldn't get the clutch to disengage and let me change gears. I had to grab and pull hard to find neutral. Apparently it was a common fault on a batch of seals. Use the complimentary AA and have it towed back to the dealer.
 
Thanks for the replies T14086 & jnoiles, I`ve just had a look.

First of all, I`m please to say it doesnt share the slave cylinder inside the bellhousing, its nicely acessable on the top.

However, thats working fine but its still slipping, so it means it has to go back to Fiat to have the gearbox off...

I`ll keep you all posted.
 
So no one has had clutch failure in a 500 yet? :confused:

Anyway, update time.

This is the driving school car, its actually 3 months old on an 09 plate.

Fiat (Desira North london) has had the car since yesterday. They have said the clutch system isnt covered by the Fiat warranty because its a driving instructors car, irrelivant of age or mileage as it all comes under general wear & tear (from when the car was taken there - before they`d even inspected it).

They quoted £600 (yes, SIX HUNDRED pounds) to fit a new clutch (again, before they`d even inspected it).

To my reconning, its around £100-130 for a clutch kit.. an hour to fit roughly.. so Fiat are now charging £500 an hour labour?

They said "the clutch fibres (!) have come away from the clutch due to overheating".

Now, unless this is some kind of new glued on clutch friction surface, I cant work out how the friction surface, which is rivited on the metal backplate with 6-10 rivits) can just suddenly become detatched from the metal plate @ 12000 miles with NO prior warning sounds or change in drivability.

The driving instructor was driving normally at the time of failure & says there was no warning, there was a muted `pop` sound & the clutch just suddenly lost`bite` when going from first to second at low speed.

I`ve told the owner that he must INSIST on getting the old clutch from the dealer as I want to see it.

Apparently it`ll be ready this afternoon.

As I`ve said elsewhere, this is exactly the reason many people dont buy 2 Fiats in a row...

If the guy has to shell out £600 (on top of servicing) every few months, loosing work every time, his Fiat is going to get VERY expensive very quickly...

I shall give you an update soon.
 
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So no one has had clutch failure in a 500 yet? :confused:

As I`ve said elsewhere, this is exactly the reason many people dont buy 2 Fiats in a row...

Needs investigating even as a driving school car the clutch shouldnt do that.

But I / we bought 2 Fiats in a row... a 1.2 Stilo 6 years ago and my 1.9 MJet GPS 3 years ago... both are fine. The GPS had a re-map to 193Bhp at 32,000 miles and there is no clutch slip even now at 51,000.

I vote an unlucky punter, you are doing the right thing asking to see the removed bits, Fiat & the dealer should really do this in my opinion or, depending on findings, share some of the cost.
 
Myself, & my immediate family have had aproximately 20 Fiats between us in the last 30 years or so. Our experience of the dealers, & especially the warranty procedure on new Fiats has been mixed, mainly bad.

Non Fiat enthuasiasts will not put up with this kind of behavior from Fiats warranty department, especially if they`ve previously had new cars from other companies who 99 times out of 100 will bend over backwards to make the customer happy & replace parts under warranty without breaking a sweat, most of the time providing a courtesy car & sometimes replacing things under warranty that you didnt even realise needed changing.

This is just another example of Fiat letting its customers down.

This is his own car, not leased or rented, he doesnt abuse his cars & he doesnt let his pupils abuse them either.

I`m 1/2 Italian, so buying Fiats (& Alfas) is natural, but even my parents have now given up on Fiat (& years of unrewarded patriotism) & recently got a Volvo instead after having Fiats for over 20 years straight. My uncles, aunts & cousins have all given up of Fiat, even the ones in Italy. All of us have been let down on many occasion by Fiats warranty procedure, which isnt worth the paper its written on.

Thinking about it, its only me that still has an Italian car in my family despite all of us owning numerous Fiat group cars in the past.

I love Fiat cars, I hate Fiats aftercare.

This is also a big reason why Fiat/Alfa always fall down so badly in JD Power surveys.

His previous car was a Vauxhall Corsa which suffered occasional clutch slave cylinder failure, whenever that happened Vauxhall replaced it completely free, no accusations made & always carried out the work with the minimum of fuss.

The Corsa didnt suffer a worn clutch till it had done nearly 40,000 miles (good for a driving school car), even then, it gave plenty of warning and they were replaced for less than 1/2 the cost of the Fiat one...

Are Fiat saying that his customers clutch abuse hase suddenly got 3 times worse in the 500 compared to the Corsa?

As far as I`m concerned, a 4 month old car with 12000 miles on the clock shouldnt have a clutch go & therefore the customer shouldnt have to pay a bean in this case, irrelivant to what job the car has.

I`ve worked for several car dealers over the last 30 years, I know about good & bad warranty handling & service departments who fob off customers.


Needs investigating even as a driving school car the clutch shouldnt do that.

But I / we bought 2 Fiats in a row... a 1.2 Stilo 6 years ago and my 1.9 MJet GPS 3 years ago... both are fine. The GPS had a re-map to 193Bhp at 32,000 miles and there is no clutch slip even now at 51,000.

I vote an unlucky punter, you are doing the right thing asking to see the removed bits, Fiat & the dealer should really do this in my opinion or, depending on findings, share some of the cost.
 
I`ve been a qualified mechanic for 29 years & have worked on thousands of cars since I was 15 @ Most Easterly, I`ve changed clutches in Panda`s, Uno`s & Punto`s in around an hour. Having looked at it I could have the clutch changed on this 500 in a maximum of 1.5 hours.

Even if it were to take 2 hours, & the clutch was £200 (which it isnt), what would that make their labour rate? £200 ph? rediculous.

Thats does sounds dodgy, but it box has to be removed its not a 1 hours job at £500 ph labour ;)
 
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I know it is easy to react to what seems an unfair decision and perhaps an over inflated price but I would suggest waiting until your friend produces the clutch parts before jumping to conclusions.

If when the parts are available for inspection the friction material on the centre plate is worn down to the rivets and the pressure plate face is blue due to excessive heat caused by severe slipping then the garage will have a point.

If on the other hand the friction material on the centre plate still has plenty of thickness then I would suggest that the pressure plate be inspected to see if it has lost it's tension, maybe a broken finger on the diaphragm.

To my mind this should be covered under warranty.

If nothing obvious it might be worth sending to an independent specialist who can inspect it thoroughly and whose diagnosis would carry enough weight to take further action if necesssary.
 
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Yikes. Get the bits. Post pics. I'd love to see what the end result was. Be good to be there when they pull it out if possible.

Also ring Fiat customer service and discuss it calmly with them.
 
That is a massively over inflated price Tony, although I cant get on eper (as usual) so I cant check the official price, I`ve looked on ebay & found the new Panda 1.2 clutch kit is £95 inc delivery.

I`d guess the genuine Fiat clutch would be £120-130 (they will pay cost for it however, something like 20-30% less), therefore around £500 labour on a simple clutch change is an absolute **** take.

I`ve been in the trade for many years & I`m generally a very calm person, but when I see rip offs like this I get absolutely livid, even, like in this case, its not my car.

I cant wait to see this clutch, although as I havent seen them physically remove it from the car, I wouldnt be suprised if they hand over a clutch from another car (or say it was mistakenly thrown away & amazingly they bin larry has just left).

I`m pretty sure they will then return the original clutch to Fiat & put in a warranty claim, so they`ll get paid twice.

This is the level of my mistrust of Fiat dealers now (Desira group in particular)....


I know it is easy to react to what seems an unfair decision and perhaps an over inflated price but I would suggest waiting until your friend produces the clutch parts before jumping to conclusions.

If when the parts are available for inspection the friction material on the centre plate is worn down to the rivets and the pressure plate face is blue due to excessive heat caused by severe slipping then the garage will have a point.

If on the other hand the friction material on the centre plate still has plenty of thickness then I would suggest that the pressure plate be inspected to see if it has lost it's tension, maybe a broken finger on the diaphragm.

To my mind this should be covered under warranty.

If nothing obvious it might be worth sending to an independent specialist who can inspect it thoroughly and whose diagnosis would carry enough weight to take further action if necesssary.
 
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Whilst I have some sympathy for your views on Fiat Warranty work not all dealers are the same, I do see you acknowledge that in your Posts.

However, would Fiat be justified in their actions (or lack of) because of the low initial purchase costs of the cars in their range?

Playing Devils advocate here you understand, buy cheap maintain / repair expensive... where other manufacturers possibly charge more so have more money in the pot to do "no questions asked" Warranty repairs?

Bottom line is would we Fiat buyers be happy to pay £500 - £1,000 per unit more at purchase and have more chance of a better Warranty service?

Servicing is another way dealers recover the lost revenue of selling cars cheap.... dont get me started on that one... :eek:
 
At £8300 for a base 500 pop, the 500 isnt cheap, its approaching grand more for the base model than the Ford Ka that its based on(which is regarded as too expensive already), its £1500 more than the Panda 1.2 (a whopping £2300 less for a 1.1) that it also shares a huge amount with the 500 & is more practical.

Your paying this premium on the 500 purely for the prestige of owning a 500, Alfa are pulling the same stunt with the Mito, plus, a waranty is a waranty, the cost of the item in question doesnt come into it.

You buy a Kia, Suzuki, Proton at £2-3000 less & you see the VAST difference in attitudes from the dealers, both in the way they deal with you generally and the prompt courtious way waranty claims are dealt with.

So no, I dont see prices as an excuse for shoddy dealer attitudes.

Alot of car companies also offer fixed price servicing nationally, Fiats however varies wildly, as you sound like you`ve found out, and seem to take the opportunity to load up `wear & tear` faults every time you visit.

To a degree the building maintainance costs will also vary wildly, as in a dealership in London will obviously cost significantly more to buy & run than 1 say in the middle of Yorkshire, so in a way, national fixed price anything doesnt make complete sense...

Whilst I have some sympathy for your views on Fiat Warranty work not all dealers are the same, I do see you acknowledge that in your Posts.

However, would Fiat be justified in their actions (or lack of) because of the low initial purchase costs of the cars in their range?

Playing Devils advocate here you understand, buy cheap maintain / repair expensive... where other manufacturers possibly charge more so have more money in the pot to do "no questions asked" Warranty repairs?

Bottom line is would we Fiat buyers be happy to pay £500 - £1,000 per unit more at purchase and have more chance of a better Warranty service?

Servicing is another way dealers recover the lost revenue of selling cars cheap.... dont get me started on that one... :eek:
 
* Waits for the arrival of T... (y)

I agree actually. I wouldnt buy new though.... ever. Too much lost at the point of sale for me, I can accept 1,500 miles of use by the dealers for a few grand of my Grande :D But some will buy new... and I agree they get a bum deal in many dealers (whats with the puns?) :(

My dealer has looked after me to be fair and it does make all the difference, I'd go back again for sure. What kills me is that it's as plain as the nose on your face what should be done to improve the JDPower survey results but I see no action yet, last survey of Fiat owners was almost as bad as the previous one...
 
I agree actually. I wouldnt buy new though.... ever. Too much lost at the point of sale for me, I can accept 1,500 miles of use by the dealers for a few grand of my Grande :D But some will buy new

This is my first "new" car, I also usually purchase a demonstrator or similar.

Unfortunately when I was ready to purchase a smaller car the only one that appealed was the 500 and as they has just been released it was too soon to be able to get one second hand.
 
Ok, Just had a call from the bloke.

Breakdown as follows:

Clutch kit £159.88
Hub Nut £ 4.29
Collar £ 4.16
Oil £ 15.40
Brake cleaner £ 3.56
Oil disposal £ 10.00
Consumables £ 6.92
Labour £369.96

Subtotal £574.17
Plus VAT@15% £ 86.12
Total £660.30

Apparently he has the cluch disk & cover. Its perfectly clean but the friction surface on the cover side of the drive plate is completely missing, theres bits of it wedged in the cover.

The friction material is riveted on & despite the rivets being worn away, theres no sign of bluing or burning at all.

Sounds to me like the surface just broke up instantaniously.
 
Ok, Just had a call from the bloke.

Breakdown as follows:

Clutch kit £159.88
Hub Nut £ 4.29
Collar £ 4.16
Oil £ 15.40
Brake cleaner £ 3.56
Oil disposal £ 10.00
Consumables £ 6.92
Labour £369.96

Subtotal £574.17
Plus VAT@15% £ 86.12
Total £660.30

Apparently he has the cluch disk & cover. Its perfectly clean but the friction surface on the cover side of the drive plate is completely missing, theres bits of it wedged in the cover.

The friction material is riveted on & despite the rivets being worn away, theres no sign of bluing or burning at all.

Sounds to me like the surface just broke up instantaniously.

Manufacture defect IMO.... 100% Warranty worthy.
 
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