Hi

Sorry if i seemed to be coming in a bit strong there. However the point is that it isn't difficult or expensive.

fiat500 said:

...quite a lot to take on there Dougal.

I was trying to be constructive and see if there is an easier way to work with our local garages, which is basically Kwikfit, National Tyres etc in this part of the world, in order to get tyres and tubes supplied and fitted for the Fiat 500 in particular and classic cars in general.

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It couldn't be any easier. you have 3 choices

1. buy the tyres and get them shipped to yourself.
2. Buy the tyres and get them shipped to your fitter
3. tell you tyre fitter where to buy them and we will look after them.

fiat500 said:

"My" tyre fitter understood about tubed rims but kindly helped me out of a fix.

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If your tyre fitter had contacted Longstone Tyres he would have had the situation explained to him by someone who understands what is going on and he would have been able to have an inner tube delivered to him the next day to fit to your car, or he might have been able to buy them direct from Michelin maybe as long as Michelin had them in stock but it would have taken a few days. However if they contact a specialist classic tyre dealer they would have had them next day.

fiat500 said:

We buy tyres where we get a good deal

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If something costs less money but is the wrong thing it is not a comparable price.

fiat500 said:

and service

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not having inner tubes in a tube type wheel is not a good service!

fiat500 said:

and I disagree that it is for the end consumer to actively choose a more expensive and possibly less convenient supplier as a charitable nod towards small or specialist businesses.

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It is not a request for a charitable nod. The request is that you disregard the perception that you will just get ripped off, if you actually contact the right people to buy the right tyre.

It is not a more expensive tyre. a differnt size tyre from a budget tyre manufacture does not cost the same as the right tyre, in the correct size made by one of the worlds best tyre manufacturers.

Comparing some cheap branded 135R12 tyre to the Pirelli Cinturato 125SR12 CN54 or the 125R12 Michelin X is like comparing a 2p Gobstopper with a fillet steak.

fiat500 said:

A Pirelli Cinturato tyre from the cheapest supplier will only be "tat" if it's a fake or a reject.

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So again we have some almost paranoid miss trust in a proper classic tyre dealer. This is a fair price https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/tyres/125-12/125-sr-12-cinturato.html how can you not think that is a good price for a weird bespoke product made by one of the worlds best tyre manufactures to your exacting specification? How can that be expensive?

fiat500 said:

I agree that some cheap inner tubes are rubbish and won't buy them.

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Can i ask which tubes you buy and where you get them from?

fiat500 said:

For me, the "right" price for a tyre is not the highest price. I have been quoted some joke prices at local garages for unusual sizes such as the 125-12,.

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Tell them to contact Longstone Tyres.

fiat500 said:

Wouldn't it be a little bit nutty to pay well over the odds just to get the tyres from a specialist.

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Why do you think you will pay more to buy it from a specialist?

Buy them from these guys https://www.ricambio.co.uk/tyre-pirelli-cinturato-(125sr12)-classic-fiat-500

ricambio have recently been involved with producing some promotional photographs for Pirelli using these tyres.

fiat500 said:

..call me tight (oh I just noticed you did )

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Oops sorry about that. However i think it is easy to get caught up in thinking that specialist is just another word for overpriced. Better stuff costs more. And where i feel a little bruised, is people don't believe that some businesses can genuinley encourage you to spend a bit more money to get the right thing, and after you have forgotten your credit card bill, you will still have the best tyres for the drive of your car, and they will look right. The price was not insignificant, but it was fair, and the cheaper alternativces were not as good, which is why they were cheaper.

Some commercial organisations do have integrity.

fiat500 said:

but I spend money in proportion to the value or benefit I get from the product or service. We know more about what we want than the guy at Kwik-Fit so aren't needing too much advice.

What I'm saying is it would be good for owners and distributors if there was a more efficient mechanism to have tyres supplied, tubed and fitted at non-specialist garages and at a price which isn't Longstone Garage retail + KwikFit "classic car owner...add on a couple of noughts" prices.

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Why do you think this is going to happen. Honestly your concerns are miss guided. If you work in KwikFit, or you are a Fiat restorer, or just want some tyres for your own car the first port of call is you the Pirelli Collezione distributer in your country, which you can find on here https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-ww/car/collection

The Whitakers said:

You sure about that?

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Yes

Dougal Dougal Cawley, I think the medium of forum posting is leading to some misperceptions.

I'm not quibbling about paying the very fair price at which the Cinturatos currently retail. I'm also far from disagreeing with you that they are an excellent product and probably the best tyres you can put on a standard Fiat 500. If I buy a lesser product from a different manufacturer I am aware that it is not comparable with the Pirelli.

As soon as a middle-man gets involved, in the form of a tyre fitting service, I am certain that the price (to me) will be hiked significantly. The way you have suggested we can obtain tyres is exactly how most of us already have to get them and is why we end up fitting them ourselves.

I don't necessarily think I will pay more to be supplied from a specialist tyre retailer. You've misunderstood what I'm saying, which is that if it was hypothetically possible to buy a genuine Cinturato from other than a specialist I would certainly do do if I could buy it significantly cheaper.

Unlike you I really don't have an axe to grind about this subject and I am delighted that there are organisations and companies making such a niche product available at a good price. So I will end my input here and avoid being labelled (libelled? ) by any more incorrect assumptions about my personality.

Hi Fiat 500

My apoligies if i appeared to be making assumptions about your personality. My intention was to brake down your points and hopefully answer them thoroughly. Which i think i did.


However please do inform your local tyre fitting shed where to get these tyres from. Some will know some will not. I'm sure you will be happy with the prices you are paying and the service you receive. (I would encourage that people insist on inner tubes. If your tyre fitter is in experienced at fitting inner tubes (for instance less than 50 years old) then when he rings Longstone to get the tyres we can advise him on how to fit them)

Dougal Cawley said:

Wo Wo-o wo! sweet child of mine!!!!!

You didn't read what i said properly. You are fitting tyres with inner tubes onto wheels that need inner tubes. It doesn't matter that it says tubeless on the side of the tyre. That is irrelaventbecause you are fitting a tube into a 125R12 tyre. It is the wheel that determines that you need an inner tube.

If a tyre is tubeless, that means if it is fitted to a tubeless wheel, then it has the option of being run with out a tube.

Any tyre that is full profile can be fitted with a tube weather it is tubeless or tube type. So for Fiat 500 owners that means 125R12, 125/80R12 & 145/80R12 can all fit inner tubes weather they have tubeless or not written on the side wall.

there is no real difference between a tubeless tyre and a tube type tyre other than a tubeless one has an extra membrane inside it to seal it.

You will not have a problem with an insurance company fitting an inner tube in a 70% or 80% profile tyre. If it is a 65% profile or lower that is different.

If your tyre fitted says you cannot fit a 125SR12 Pirelli Cinturato onto your wheel with an inner tube. Go to another tyre fitter.




You might not beleive me, but put this in perspective, this is a tyre made by Pirelli, specially to be fitted to Fiat 500!
this is not there first time making these tyres. they know what they are doing.

Michelin - they have made a tyre or 2 over the years. They know what they are doing. They also have made a 125R12 X specially for the Fiat 500 - It says Tubeless on the side. but you can still fit an inner tube if you are fitting it to wheels that need a tube, such as for instance a Fiat 500.

https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/tyres/125-12.html

Just fit a tube

If you have a problem contact Longstone tyres, Pirelli or Michelin they will not leave you in the Lurch. the right thing to do is fit the correct 125R12 Pirelli with a quality tube.

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So I sent an email and had a lengthy call with my insurance company today regarding your statement above, in a nutshell they advised that if I was to make a claim due to an accident and it was noted that I was running tubes in 'Tubeless' tires then my insurance will be void...…...I asked them to put this in writing in response to my initial email to which I will happy share once it reaches myself...….


And maybe a bit less of the Wo wo wo'ing

The Whitakers said:

So I sent an email and had a lengthy call with my insurance company today regarding your statement above, in a nutshell they advised that if I was to make a claim due to an accident and it was noted that I was running tubes in 'Tubeless' tires then my insurance will be void...…...I asked them to put this in writing in response to my initial email to which I will happy share once it reaches myself...….


And maybe a bit less of the Wo wo wo'ing

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You talked to the wrong man.

Did you clarify that it was for a 125R12 tyre? A full 80% profile tyre and not a low profile tyre?

Did you clarify that the tyres were being fitted onto a wheel that was not a tubeless wheel? (not that that matters, because you can always fit inner tubes in any 80% profile tyre or 70% profile for that matter.)

I would like to know what you think you should do? do you think you should run tubeless on a tube tyrpe wheel?

Please give me the contact details of your insurance company and the person you talked to.

here is a bit of what i'm talking about. bu i am struggling to find something defining what tyres can fit inner tubes? but we will get there.

Dougal Cawley said:

You talked to the wrong man.

Did you clarify that it was for a 125R12 tyre? A full 80% profile tyre and not a low profile tyre?

Did you clarify that the tyres were being fitted onto a wheel that was not a tubeless wheel? (not that that matters, because you can always fit inner tubes in any 80% profile tyre or 70% profile for that matter.)

I would like to know what you think you should do? do you think you should run tubeless on a tube tyrpe wheel?

Please give me the contact details of your insurance company and the person you talked to.

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I clarified the manufacturer, name of tyre and the car they were going on.


The insurance company was actually liaising with the main broker at the same time.


And sorry no I wont give you my insurance company but they are a well know insurance group.


And if you want to know what I would do, I would fit the correct size tyre that states 'Tubed' on the side regardless of manufacturer and not what some 'geezer' states on the internet whilst pedalling his wares.

From my insurance company...…


Good Afternoon Mr Whitaker,

Following on from our recent telephone conversation, as discussed if tubeless tyres were to be fitted to your tubed wheels and a tube was fitted in the tubeless tyre, in the event of an accident if it was deemed for the wheels to be the result of this you would not be covered as the tubeless tyre has not been used for its manufacturing purpose due to a tube being fitted.

Many Thanks

Dougal Cawley said:

here is a bit of what i'm talking about. bu i am struggling to find something defining what tyres can fit inner tubes? but we will get there.

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Sorry but I don't care what you may find, Insurance company say no...….

Dougal Cawley is very experienced and very much respected in the the 'classic tyre' world, and to get Pirelli to re-manufacture the correct original tyres for what is basically, a very limited market, is amazing. When the 500 was designed and built, tubeless tyres did not exist. When a tyre is fitted into a '500' wheel it must have a tube fitted--the wheel does not have the 'holding ridge' which is required when fitting tyres with no tube.
The way that I was treated by "a well known classic car insurer" when we were about to move house would make me listen to Dougal and change my insurance company.
I have no desire to fall out with anybody in this forum, and we are all entitled to our own personal opinion--but the above is my view on the subject.

The Whitakers said:

From my insurance company...…


Good Afternoon Mr Whitaker,

Following on from our recent telephone conversation, as discussed if tubeless tyres were to be fitted to your tubed wheels and a tube was fitted in the tubeless tyre, in the event of an accident if it was deemed for the wheels to be the result of this you would not be covered as the tubeless tyre has not been used for its manufacturing purpose due to a tube being fitted.

Many Thanks

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"Wo Wo-o wo! sweet child of mine!!!!!"

That really is a problem...I'm off to check my non-Pirelli tyres straight away.

the hobbler said:

to get Pirelli to re-manufacture the correct original tyres for what is basically, a very limited market, is amazing.

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I have already said that.

The tyres(Cinturato) were previously available for many years and were flawed only by the fact that a Turkish manufacturer other than Pirelli had their name on the sidewall. I covered almost 30,000 miles on them and have no complaint. They were no more difficult to obtain nor more expensive than the ones we are talking about.

You and Dougal will no doubt know that the remanufactured Pirelli is made at a different factory and from different moulds; I would be interested to know that for certain.

When it comes to tyres it seems that Dougal is your man and I appreciate his passion for the subject. But when it comes to insurance you are given no choice but to accept the terms that your chosen company gives you and I doubt that any written explanations by Dougal or anyone else would carry any weight if the s**t hit the fan.

Oh No!

this is rediculous!

your insurance man doesn't understand the difference between a tube tyre and a tubeless tyre. This needs rectifying. Please give me the contact of this man, so i can save him from loosing some massive court cases, which he will loose.

A chap in the back room of an insurance company does not understand as much about tyres technology as the tyre manufacturers themselves. If they try to duck out of a claim because an inner tube was used in a tyre which it is perfectly fine to use an inner tube in then he will loose his case. Which he will!

If i take just the breifest glance at my Michelin brochure i see a range of Michelin XWX tyres all of which are tubeless. A large quantity of which are fitted to vintage Ferrari on Borrani wire wheels. Which of course all fit inner tubes.

If i look at the Dunlop SP Sport tyres for series 1 & 2 E-types, tubeless. they are all on wire wheels and always have been.

The Whitakers - i don't know what you are trying to prove, but please give me the contact details of the man within your insurance company so i can set this straight.

the majority of pre 1970s classic cars around the world are fitting wire wheels that always have needed inner tubes. The majority of them are fitting tyres that are called tubeless tyres. A tubeless tyre is tubless because they have an extra film inside them to stop them being pourous. That is all. There is no other difference. full and 70% profile tyres can all fit inner tubes!

Please think about what you are doing and stop this ridiculousness. If you won't give me the insurance mans details go back to him and ask him to clarify the position with 70 and 80 profile tyres and ask him to check his position because it is wrong.

My take on it and I have agreement with both sides. Personally I would never fit a 125R12 tyre on a standard 500 OEM wheel without a tube. These wheels were clearly designed for tubes.

The asking some bloke at the insurance company argument seems a little tenuous. I mean let’s face it most insurance companies are going to find any excuse to avoid paying out on a claim, but I don’t think the people you’re likely to talk to on the phone are really qualified to make such a call about a claim without looking at the full facts. Sean is probably best placed to comment on that?

500 OEM wheels are notoriously difficult to get balanced nowadays because of the bar that holds the hub cap in place. I have heard so many people over the years complaining about finding it impossible to find someone to do it. I would guesstimate that the vast majority are not balance. Does that mean that if you are unfortunate enough to be involved in a claim and the assessor sees no balanced wheel weights, that he is going to get all the wheels checked to see if they ok before approving the claim? If a wheel was found to have caused the accident?

But lets get real the 500 is a low performance car, on little skinny wheels that the vast majority don’t do more that a few hundred miles a year, most of them haven’t seen rain for years and even driven in anger you can just about get the backside sliding under certain circumstances. Is going to be putting some original Pirelli manufactured tyres on my 500 really going to make a massive difference? No virtually none in my opinion.

As much as I respect Dougal, as he clearly knows his tyres and is respected in the classic car racing world. Maybe this is where his message becomes a little disjointed though. If I had a classic performance sports car that I wanted to give some stick around some lovely British B roads, I am 100% with him. Tyres make a massive difference on cars of this ilk. Having owned lots of old Triumphs believe me I know. An old straight six Triumph with lots of beans through the rear tyres can be quite an experience and made a lot worse with poor tyres. But a Fiat 500 is not really comparable in my opinion.

It does seem that his purpose is to push his product and his business, big respect, at the end of the day he is a business man. I don’t even think his prices are that bad. The only problem is maybe his Yorkshire bluntness comes across as a little aggressive to some people, particularly on the love-in that is the Fiat 500 classic forum.

But I don’t think I would be taking his advice over my insurance company if I am to be brutally honest.

What tyre do you want to fit to your Fiat 500? There are choices, However the Pirelli would be the obbvious choice. You might be concerned about the price, but actually as you have seen the price is very good.

You don't think it is worth buying a good tyre; well fair enough, but 2 issues that are still relavent to a non sporting car driven in a non sporting manner are build quality and ability to stop the car, and a good Pirelli compound on a well built Pirelli carcass are perfect. Also fitting a nice thin proper tyre puts less load on your steering components. So you might think, well i will just buy the cheap tyre, Oh hang on a minute the original Pirelli does look good and the price is also really good. What the heck i'll just buy the good stuff. Oh hang on a minute the steering does feel a bit nicer. maybe Pirelli do make better tyres than the cheap tosh that is out there after all.

Of course the choice is yours.



But this is not what the heated element of this discussion is about. What is the real concern is that, your standard wheels determin that you should fit an inner tube. Any tyre that is a full 80% profile, 70% profile or 75% profile for that matter, can fit an inner tube, regardless of weather it says tubeless or not. We have a situation where an insurance company has been tricked into saying that a car under this circumstance is not covered which is not correct. If an accident happens under this circumstance, and the insurance company tries to get out of paying, there is going to be a big court case which the insurance company will loose. So the wrong person in the insurance company has been asked. Or of course, another possibility is that the insurance companies letter is of course fake news?

Thanks Dougal,
you are 100% correct. I have seen you helping on the Lotus Forum also.
Why people think they know more than Colin Chapman or Fiat i don't know.
Their only skill to me is to show how they can mess up nicely balanced classic cars.
Car constructors have poured soo much money into R and D to get these cars right.
If you want a car to handle different for Rallies or Circuits then follow the specific models from the constructors e.g. Lotus 26R or Gordini.
Well i feel better for having said that
Alan

here is a good bit of Lotus racing. This my first driver change in the Elite.

https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.fenning/videos/10156589106651101/

isn't it smooth.

Dougal Cawley said:

What tyre do you want to fit to your Fiat 500? There are choices, However the Pirelli would be the obbvious choice. You might be concerned about the price, but actually as you have seen the price is very good.

You don't think it is worth buying a good tyre; well fair enough, but 2 issues that are still relavent to a non sporting car driven in a non sporting manner are build quality and ability to stop the car, and a good Pirelli compound on a well built Pirelli carcass are perfect. Also fitting a nice thin proper tyre puts less load on your steering components. So you might think, well i will just buy the cheap tyre, Oh hang on a minute the original Pirelli does look good and the price is also really good. What the heck i'll just buy the good stuff. Oh hang on a minute the steering does feel a bit nicer. maybe Pirelli do make better tyres than the cheap tosh that is out there after all.

Of course the choice is yours.



But this is not what the heated element of this discussion is about. What is the real concern is that, your standard wheels determin that you should fit an inner tube. Any tyre that is a full 80% profile, 70% profile or 75% profile for that matter, can fit an inner tube, regardless of weather it says tubeless or not. We have a situation where an insurance company has been tricked into saying that a car under this circumstance is not covered which is not correct. If an accident happens under this circumstance, and the insurance company tries to get out of paying, there is going to be a big court case which the insurance company will loose. So the wrong person in the insurance company has been asked. Or of course, another possibility is that the insurance companies letter is of course fake news?

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Oh well funnily enough I do have Pirelli tyres fitted to my 500 and agreed with you 100% regarding inner tubes on OEM wheels. Also I said that I thought the insurance company argument was rather tenuous to say the least. I didn’t say I personally wanted to fit cheap tyres because at the time the Pirelli’s I have fitted were at the top end of the cost. Where I do disagree with you is, that I personally, don’t think it is maybe as a huge an issue as you imply on such low performance car as the 500.

Let’s be honest your sole purpose on here is to flog your tyres. I does seem you are quite prolific across numerous car forums using the same tactics?

Back to the recent issue/ "fake-news" as regards using tubes in these tyres.
I remembered I still have a spare wheel with a Pirelli (under licence?) tyre which were made by Formula.

The Formula tyre specifically states, "Radial Tube Type" and not "Radial Tubeless". This is a relevant difference within the current debate.

The "Formula" has a Pirelli symbol and uses the Cinturato name and the same tread pattern. So to repeat a couple of questions from before; does anyone know if the newer tyres are made at the Turkish factory which made the old ones?

Another relevant point is that the Pirelli website strongly implies that these tyres were first used on the Fiat 500R. I may be reading this incorrectly and it wouldn't take away from the suitability or high quality of the tyres. But back in the olden days, in my memory, I think a lot of Fiat 500's had cross-ply tyres which were even narrower.