Technical Unable to get gears?

[Tractorgirl]

Fiat 2016 45K

When I select 1st 2nd and reverse gears, just pops out? I can get 3rd and 4th ok

It is both with engine on and off ?

Help

 

[steveras57]

Has this started happening suddenly? have you only just got the car? or has it been getting worse over a longer period of time?

 

[Tractorgirl]

No had car since 2019. Just happened yesterday. Clutch pedal doesn't seem any different.

 

[Tractorgirl]

Gear Selector Cables ?

 

[steveras57]

on top of the gearbox underneath the battery and battery tray are the connectors that attach the gearshift cables to the selectors!- 1st check would be to see if anything has become detached or loose!, the fittings are small round green plastic things! if anythings broken you should see it straight away ! if it all looks (and feels ok wiggle em to check) then its possible that the cables have stretched slightly and lost the correct adjustment there are adjusters on the cable ends but fiddling if you dont know what your doing might make things worse! i would suggest that if nothings obviously broken then get it to a garage for investigation! asap!

 

[jrkitching]

Gear Selector Cables ?

Possible but unlikely. Cable problems usually result in having difficulty selecting gears. If selection is OK but it keeps jumping out of gear, it's more likely to be an internal gearbox fault.

The 500 gearbox is prone to bearing wear, and if this becomes excessive, can cause the car to jump out of gear. Worn selector plates inside the box is another possibility. There's a similar thread running just now where this is exactly what's happened, and the owner is trying to source a replacement gearbox from a breakers. @vinnychoff might be able to tell you more about this.

Excessive selector wear can be the result of resting your hand on the gearchange lever during normal driving.

Given the cost of replacing the gearbox, this really needs diagnosing by someone who knows what they're doing. An experienced mechanic could likely narrow this one down, but they'd need to drive the car - it can't be diagnosed remotely from a keyboard.

And if it does turn out that there's a major gearbox fault, then in view of the age & mileage of your car, I'd suggest getting a specialist gearbox repair to refurbish your own 'box might be a better long term investment than just fitting a secondhand replacement of unknown pedigree. The sooner you do this, the greater the chance that your own 'box can be repaired economically - it may be that it just needs a new input shaft bearing & oil seal.

 

[steveras57]

Possible but unlikely. Cable problems usually result in having difficulty selecting gears. If selection is OK but it keeps jumping out of gear, it's more likely to be an internal gearbox fault.

The 500 gearbox is prone to bearing wear, and if this becomes excessive, can cause the car to jump out of gear. Worn selector plates inside the box is another possibility. There's a similar thread running just now where this is exactly what's happened, and the owner is trying to source a replacement gearbox from a breakers. @vinnychoff might be able to tell you more about this.

Excessive selector wear can be the result of resting your hand on the gearchange lever during normal driving.

Given the cost of replacing the gearbox, this really needs diagnosing by someone who knows what they're doing. An experienced mechanic could likely narrow this one down, but they'd need to drive the car - it can't be diagnosed remotely from a keyboard.

And if it does turn out that there's a major gearbox fault, then in view of the age & mileage of your car, I'd suggest getting a specialist gearbox repair to refurbish your own 'box might be a better long term investment than just fitting a secondhand replacement of unknown pedigree. The sooner you do this, the greater the chance that your own 'box can be repaired economically - it may be that it just needs a new input shaft bearing & oil seal.

have read a few threads on here regarding folk who have had gearbox problems and had to replace them but not heard before that "the 500 gearbox is prone to bearing wear" which is good to know and also bad if you see what i mean!!!

 

[jrkitching]

"the 500 gearbox is prone to bearing wear" which is good to know and also bad if you see what i mean

There have been several posts here regarding input shaft bearing failure; this usually also takes out the oil seal. This is often first noticed when the resultant oil seeping into the bellhousing causes the clutch to start slipping. This appears to be a longstanding issue which also affects other Fiat cars that use a similar gearbox.

Bearing wear that's sufficiently excessive to cause the car to jump out of gear isn't so common, but if too much oil is lost, excessive wear of all the internal gearbox parts isn't really that surprising.

My understanding is that replacing the bearing and seal isn't that hard. It might be worth doing this as a precautionary routine replacement if you've got the 'box out for another reason, and certainly if you're fitting a gearbox with unknown pedigree from a breaker.

It might also be worth a non-invasive look into the bellhousing (remote endoscope camera perhaps?) as part of the annual service to make sure there's no evidence of oil where it shouldn't be.

@koalar, any thoughts on this one?

 

[steveras57]

Where would be a good access point for the endoscope to be put into then?.

 

[varesecrazy]

Where would be a good access point for the endoscope to be put into then?.

The square hole..?

(Previously known as "the timing window"..)

seems like a logical place to start

 

[jrkitching]

The square hole..?

(Previously known as "the timing window"..)

seems like a logical place to start

I'll give this a try once the weather improves.

 

[koalar]

Right let's start at the begining

As far as I know popping out of gear is not a symptom of an input bearing and I have driven one until it exploded. Noise is the first sign, followed by judding when releasing the clutch slowly

The geaboxs are very strong and reliable as long as they are maintained, with no work done to them except oil they have passed half a million miles.

Lack of oil will kill the plastic cage on the input shaft, unfortunately checking gearbox oil seals and toping the gearbox oil is often skipped even by garages

People have put over twice the normall torque through them without any problems

Plenty secondhand boxes being sold on ebay with failed bearing and seals, there just up to that age where servicing regularly gets missed.

Here is the drive plate visable through the inspection hole, tourch shining at it, there maybe a rubber cover over it

If you want to know if the input bearing or seal is failing just put your finger inside here (Engine Off obviously) rub it on the inside and see if it comes back covered in oil

Back to popping out of gear

Yes rusty selector cables will do this, I personally had 1st do this but no other gears, Reverse was also sometimes difficult to select, mine was time sensitive, worse when warmed up

The gear selection front to back does not work how you expect it to, it's the momentum of a counterweight that moves it the last bit, any extra friction either jams the system or it does not engage fully

Diagnose

If it's consistent you can manually select first with the engine off and try it, I can just get my arm down on the panda without removing anything, it is uncomfortable, on the 500 you may have to remove the battery tray

Here's me test the gear selection on a panda

If it's intermittently failing, put some very thin oil down the ends of the selector cables and work it in, do not use grease as is often recommended, I attracts the dirt very quickly, see if it improves


I don't know if they ever used the different select mechanism as used on some of the later post 2012 panda 4x4 on the 500

It could be a worn gearbox, which is why you try and diagnose first. I would be very rare as in I have never seen one on a fiat panda or punto

 

[jrkitching]

It's possible that, if the cables are under any kind of stress when the gears are engaged, they could pull the car out of gear. It's also possible that misadjusted cables could prevent the gear selectors from positively engaging, which would also lead to it popping out of gear under load.

One thought to help diagnosis; if you temporarily disconnect the selector cables when the car is positively engaged in first gear, start the car (with the clutch depressed obviously) and pull away, then if it still drops out of gear, it's definitely not a cable adjustment issue.

 

[steveras57]

I was thinking that if the inner cable had stretched slightly it might not be pulling fully againts the outer!, so the selector is not moving fully to force the gear(s) into engaugement thus they pop out!- a slight re-tension on the appropriate cable along with a little lite lube might solve it!(hopefully)

 

[koalar]

There's a big block of steel here

That once it's started moving its this that moves the cable not the gearstick


If you could get
2,4,R
But not
1,3,5
Then yes an an adjusment would be worth a shot
One gear it's very unlikely, fiat use quite a few different cables, there is alway an adjusment left to right, could be on either end, theres probably less than a 50/50 chance there is even an adjustment for front to back

Here's some with only a left to right adjustmentl

 

[Tractorgirl]

Fiat 2016 45K

When I select 1st 2nd and reverse gears, just pops out? I can get 3rd and 4th ok

It is both with engine on and off ?

Help

Also. How what do I ask a garage to check 1st etc? So I don't get ripped off please.

Also thank you for being so helpful xx

 

[koalar]

It's possible that, if the cables are under any kind of stress when the gears are engaged, they could pull the car out of gear. It's also possible that misadjusted cables could prevent the gear selectors from positively engaging, which would also lead to it popping out of gear under load.

One thought to help diagnosis; if you temporarily disconnect the selector cables when the car is positively engaged in first gear, start the car (with the clutch depressed obviously) and pull away, then if it still drops out of gear, it's definitely not a cable adjustment issue.

Do the test in the video first, very common, very quick. You could use a stick

If it still drops out its woth moving on to this, it very unlikely as the cables are fixed firmly to the gearbox only a few inches away, but you will need to eliminate everything before moving on

I have seen one bracket on the gearbox left loose after a clutch change cause some gears not to select. Can't be 100% it was a fiat now though

 

[koalar]

Also. How what do I ask a garage to check 1st etc? So I don't get ripped off please.

Also thank you for being so helpful xx

Dam it sound like you are relying on a garage

Even if you are not doing the repair yourself, it would be wise to try and dignose it yourself

The video in post 12

If you get someone in the car to move the gearstick forwards and backwards, be hind the battery you should see the lever moving

Get them to put it in 1st and push the lever a little further with a stick if you can't get your arm

Assuming it stays in gear now tell the garage what you have done and it's a common fault,


Selector cables plus 1/2 hour (most minimum 1 hour) plus part, plus ramp time isn't unreasonable

 

[jrkitching]

Even if you are not doing the repair yourself, it would be wise to try and dignose it yourself

I'd agree. Getting this properly diagnosed now could save a lot of someone else's time, and your money, trying to fix the wrong part.

Get them to put it in 1st and push the lever a little further with a stick if you can't get your arm

Assuming it stays in gear

If it does, you're unlikely to need to replace the gearbox. Knowing what has to be there for the gears to stay engaged will get you a long way toward working out what's wrong. But unless you can get the car to stay in gear, you can't be sure there isn't an internal fault in the 'box.

Fiat 2016 45K

I can't help thinking it's most unusual to see a major gearbox fault at this age & mileage. Of course, that doesn't mean it's impossible...

 

[koalar]

If it does, you're unlikely to need to replace the gearbox

Correct

This is how a check for the faulty cable

I have had to replaced two,

And several others have diagnosed the same way in the Panda section

It's alway best to diagnose first

I did go through the whole oil it first, but it was only temporary