Technical punto will not stsart after clutch replacement

[PaulX]

hi everyone,
I am desperate for help with my 2003 punto 1.2.
I have just replaced the clutch, throwout bearing and starter motor following a catastrophic failure of all 3.
i got everything back together yesterday and it will not start. the starter seems to be working fine, but the engine just turns over and the fuel pump appears to be on constantly with the ignition on.
I was sure I got all my electrical connections correctly back together... My only concern was the starter motor wiring. Because of the location of the starter motor I was unsure about one particular cable which comes out of the loom above the starter, it is a white cable with a ring connecter on the end that looks like it might be for earthing.
there is a bolt in the engine casing just below the starter motor which I had removed something from on disassembly... I have earthed the cable there... does anyone know if this is correct ?.
As I said earlier, the engine turns over, but refuses to start and the fuel pump seems to be on constantly with the ignition.
I am absolutely stumped. Any help would be appreciated enormously.

 

[judderbar]

I was not aware there was an earth wire on the engine. All I knew about was the gearbox earth that comes from the battery. Earths are black.

The petrol pump should only run for 5 seconds when you turn on and then when the engine is started it runs continually. Possibly you have damaged the bundle of cables that go to the engine and run over the battery box. So you should be able to trace the petrol pump relay wire and see what is happening. In the punto downloads section you can see pin out and colour code diagrams for the two most common ECUs. The ECU will ground the petrol pump relay to cause it to operate for 5 seconds only when you turn the key otherwise the relay wire will have 12 volts coming thru the relay coil from the battery. Once you know which plug and pin on the ecu plug is the one you are looking for you can ground that pin on the plug to cause the pump to operate if the wiring is good. The pump running continuously is not your problem however causing the engine to not start but presumably it can help you find were there is a wiring problem.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Basics 1st..

Got the immob key lock symbol.. Both on the off?

Got the buzz of the fuel pump?

Might point to a basic wiring issue

So.. Only unplugged the starter wiring and the chunky earth cable from the battery..

If it's still cranking it should be reasonable

 

[boguing]

To check to see if it's missing an earth put a jump lead from battery -ve to the engine block.

 

[PaulX]

I was not aware there was an earth wire on the engine. All I knew about was the gearbox earth that comes from the battery. Earths are black.

The petrol pump should only run for 5 seconds when you turn on and then when the engine is started it runs continually. Possibly you have damaged the bundle of cables that go to the engine and run over the battery box. So you should be able to trace the petrol pump relay wire and see what is happening. In the punto downloads section you can see pin out and colour code diagrams for the two most common ECUs. The ECU will ground the petrol pump relay to cause it to operate for 5 seconds only when you turn the key otherwise the relay wire will have 12 volts coming thru the relay coil from the battery. Once you know which plug and pin on the ecu plug is the one you are looking for you can ground that pin on the plug to cause the pump to operate if the wiring is good. The pump running continuously is not your problem however causing the engine to not start but presumably it can help you find were there is a wiring problem.

thanks judderbar, thanks for you help, I will not be attempting anything until tomorrow.
I will give an update then.
Thanks again.

 

[PaulX]

Hi

Basics 1st..

Got the immob key lock symbol.. Both on the off?

Got the buzz of the fuel pump?

Might point to a basic wiring issue

So.. Only unplugged the starter wiring and the chunky earth cable from the battery..

If it's still cranking it should be reasonable

Hi varesecrazy, I will give an update as soon as I know more, thanks for your help.

 

[PaulX]

I have been considering my problem and I suspect that I might have wired the starter motor incorrectly.

I have looked in the Haynes manual, but it does not show enough detail... i know I should have taken notes... but I did'nt.

Does anyone have some good photos of the wiring or a video.

I still cannot figure out the WHITE wire ?.

i will get the car back up on the axle stands tomorrow and remove the connections from the starter then post a picture to see if anyone can help.

thanks to anyone who has already already helped me.

This is the model of starter.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

I don't get it. You are able to swap the clutch...but you fail at simple wiring (about 2-3 wires total in the starter area).
According to Haynes manual for Punto_2, there are only 3 white wires in the whole car: reverse light lamp, ABS sensor (left front) and AirBag crash sensor (passenger's side).
IF the car is 100% original (not modified, not upgraded).

1. Check the "ground" ("earth"). All of them (gearbox, body, main fusebox, inside the car - Body Computer etc.).
2. Search more. "Mystery white wire" (but inside the car): https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/fiat-punto-1-2-2002-hotwire-start-problem.475654/
+Google Images! No white wires.

 

[PaulX]

I don't get it. You are able to swap the clutch...but you fail at simple wiring (about 2-3 wires total in the starter area).
According to Haynes manual for Punto_2, there are only 3 white wires in the whole car: reverse light lamp, ABS sensor (left front) and AirBag crash sensor (passenger's side).
IF the car is 100% original (not modified, not upgraded).

1. Check the "ground" ("earth"). All of them (gearbox, body, main fusebox, inside the car - Body Computer etc.).
2. Search more. "Mystery white wire" (but inside the car): https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/fiat-punto-1-2-2002-hotwire-start-problem.475654/
+Google Images! No white wires.

I get what you are saying... I am embarrassed.

The photos you have provided are very helpful.

The white wire I am talking about is probably the one going to the lower connection on the solenoid in your first photo, fingers crossed I will get is right now.

I am very grateful for your help... I am almost sure now that I have mixed up the connections.

I hope I will have good news tomorrow.

thanks GrandePuntoPL.

 

[PaulX]

I don't get it. You are able to swap the clutch...but you fail at simple wiring (about 2-3 wires total in the starter area).
According to Haynes manual for Punto_2, there are only 3 white wires in the whole car: reverse light lamp, ABS sensor (left front) and AirBag crash sensor (passenger's side).
IF the car is 100% original (not modified, not upgraded).

1. Check the "ground" ("earth"). All of them (gearbox, body, main fusebox, inside the car - Body Computer etc.).
2. Search more. "Mystery white wire" (but inside the car): https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/fiat-punto-1-2-2002-hotwire-start-problem.475654/
+Google Images! No white wires.

Hi again,

These are my wires.

The two red wires A & B are from the battery positive and the alternator… I get that, they go to the main connection.

Wire C is a short wire which could only go (I think) to the other connection on the solenoid or maybe earthed on the top bolt that secures the starter ?.

Wire D, the white wire, I thought was coonected to the engine block below the starter. The connection is visible in one of your pictures, with a cable protected by the corrugated sleeve.

The white wire now looks like the white wire in your picture that goes to the other connection on the solenoid.

I am still confused about wires C&D… the White cable is the only wire that reaches the earth pointbelow the starter.

Does the photo help any ?.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Easy. Test both wires using small bulb (let's say about 5 Watts).
Connect the bulb to the "white" (or pink-ish on "my" 3 example pics) wire and the ground - then try to start (crank), see if it lights up (if so, it's a starter command wire).

 

[boguing]

Easy. Test both wires using small bulb (let's say about 5 Watts).
Connect the bulb to the "white" (or pink-ish on "my" 3 example pics) wire and the ground - then try to start (crank), see if it lights up (if so, it's a starter command wire).

Added to this, can you tell anything from the witness marks left by the terminals which they might have been connected to?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

1. Yes. Sometimes you can match the imprinted hexagon or corrosion pattern on mating parts. Or the specific type of dirt.
2. Next time take a pictures before the job. Saves the time and trouble during assembly.
3. During gearbox/clutch swap (FIRE 8V family), you can leave the starter wires connected. No need to dismantle. Starter can just hang there unbolted.

 

[PaulX]

Easy. Test both wires using small bulb (let's say about 5 Watts).
Connect the bulb to the "white" (or pink-ish on "my" 3 example pics) wire and the ground - then try to start (crank), see if it lights up (if so, it's a starter command wire).

thanks... that will be for another day now... if it turns out to be the command wire... that would still leave the short wire C without a home and where is the wire that earths below the starter motor.
you are being really helpfull, but I just can't figure this out.
i think I need to find a similar car and photograph it.

 

[PaulX]

1. Yes. Sometimes you can match the imprinted hexagon or corrosion pattern on mating parts. Or the specific type of dirt.
2. Next time take a pictures before the job. Saves the time and trouble during assembly.
3. During gearbox/clutch swap (FIRE 8V family), you can leave the starter wires connected. No need to dismantle. Starter can just hang there unbolted.

The starter was broken and needed to be replaced. i will have a look at the old starter to see if there are any clues on the connections
thanks.

 

[PaulX]

thanks... that will be for another day now... if it turns out to be the command wire... that would still leave the short wire C without a home and where is the wire that earths below the starter motor.
you are being really helpfull, but I just can't figure this out.
i think I need to find a similar car and photograph it.

I have had another look in the Haynes manual and although the pictures are rubbish… it does look like the short wire with the corrugated sheath is connected to the solenoid.

 

[PaulX]

thanks judderbar, thanks for you help, I will not be attempting anything until tomorrow.
I will give an update then.
Thanks again.

hi Judderbar, you can see the earthed cable I am talking about in the bottom of this picture.

 

[judderbar]

hi Judderbar, you can see the earthed cable I am talking about in the bottom of this picture.

looking from the top I have a wire in a ribbed cable protector that is going to what i think is a bolt under the starter motor. This cable joins the wiring harness at the same point the two wires in ribbed cable protectors branch to the alternator and A/C compressor clutch.

 

[boguing]

I've re-read the whole thread and missed the important bit. The engine's turning over properly. It wouldn't do that if you'd wired it incorrectly.

The white wire looks the right length for that earth point, no high volume car maker wastes inches of wire. Nothing else needs bolting on at that point, so it's an earth point. To my eyes the terminal on that white wire looks like an earth lug - the bent over bit would be a bit risky on a positive terminal on the starter and the hole's too big for the signal wire.

So why won't it start? You were working around the gearbox end, and from memory the battery tray has to come out, so was there an earth strap there that needs looking at - doesn't the -ve bat connection split into two or three - and if so are the other wires still connected? Any damage to the engine fusebox? Relays and fuses not damaged? Does everything else electrical work as it should?

 

[varesecrazy]

thanks... that will be for another day now... if it turns out to be the command wire... that would still leave the short wire C without a home and where is the wire that earths below the starter motor.
you are being really helpfull, but I just can't figure this out.
i think I need to find a similar car and photograph it.

I should have time tomorrow to add more info

Wondering if you Somehow used a wrong cable to the Starter.. That is robbing a sensor of its circuit..