Technical Fiat Punto Mk2 Petrol 1.2 16V not starting

[crankshaft]

Hi FIAT Forum,

I am, yet again, turning to you for help.
My Punto 1.2 16V from 2002 is not starting, the start motor turns the engine, but I have no ignition. I have checked a few things so far:

1. Measure the spark plugs HT Leads resistance, got these approximate values: 3.7 KΩ, 3 KΩ, 2.2 KΩ, 2 KΩ
2. Installed new spark plugs
3. Measure the resistance for the 4 petrol injectors, got around 14.5 Ω. Disconnecting the injectors registers a fault code in the ECU.
4. Checked that there is pressure in the fuel injectors rail, I don't have a value for the pressure, but pressing the valve on the rail, with a screw driver, fuel comes gushing out.
5. Fuel pump runs, every time I turn the key
6. The immobilizer symbol works as expected. In any case I tried with my spare key too
7. I cleaned the throttle body, checked for obvious clogs in the air intake
8. There are no Fault Codes in the engine ECU
9. The engine has oil
10. The car has petrol in the tank
11. Cleaned almost every electric contact that I could find under the bonnet.

As you can imagine I am desperate to find a solution to this. Any help is welcome.
I haven't test the coil pack, I don't know what values it should have for resistance.
I am worried about trying to start the car too many times, and the injected gasoline would eventually ruin the catalytic converter. any tips about this?


For some long background story on how I got in this mess:
For a couple of months, now, the car has been idling a bit rough, but nothing too serious, and not noticeable when driving, and no power loss.
Two days ago, when I started the car in the morning the idling was much rough, the whole car was shaking, I drove a bit to see if accelerating would make the problem go away, but it didn't, the car shook even when accelerating, something that didn't happen before. Opening the bonnet I could see the whole engine vibrating violently. I decided to park the car at home, and not use it anymore.
Since it had been raining a lot, and it has been quite damp, I invested my troubleshooting in cleaning the electrical contacts with a contact cleaner from WD-40. The problem persisted.
The next day I bought 4 new spark plugs, and installed them.

When I removed the old spark plugs, the spark plug well on cylinder 1 had some oil. It leaked there when adding oil to the engine, something that tends to happen when I change the oil. I remove the spark plug, and noticed that there was dried up oil in the threads in the engine block/head (where the spark plug screws into).
I decided to use, first brake cleaner spray, and then electric contact cleaner spray to clean the threads in the engine block. I applied the spray on the threads of the old spark plug, fitted the plug into the engine, and then removed the plug. Repeated this a couple of times. (to be clear I did not turn on the engine, or electrically connected the plug, I was just trying to clean the threads in the engine head). I then used a clean cloth, and with the help of a screw driver that reached deep in the well, cleaned the threads. I used an air compressor to blow air into the spark plug well to help any remnant that eventually remain from the cleaners dry. This was successful, I could no longer feel resistance when screwing in a new spark plug.
Noticed the same thing on the spark plug well on cylinder 2, and did the same.

I installed all 4 new spark plugs. And... the problem persisted, and got even worse, the engine would shake more violently, and would eventually die.
I removed the 4 plugs, and could smell gasoline, so I think the injectors are working.. worried that too much petrol had been injected and not burned completely I left the 4 spark plugs removed over night to help it all evaporate. And because I would be working on the car anymore that day.

Today, I refitted the 4 spark plugs, and the car no longer starts. The starter motor turns the engine, but the engine doesn't seem to have ignition. Before it would at least have some form of ignition.
Before refitting the spark plugs, I disconnected the fuel injectors, and turned the engine, using the starter motor, a couple of times, just to see if I could see anything inside the combustion chamber, looking through the spark plugs hole on the engine head.. But it was just the pistons going up and down, as expected. There sure are some carbon deposits inside

Idk what's wrong with the car, I don't think that my process of cleaning the spark plug threads caused this... I think was thorough and careful.

 

[crankshaft]

Thanks to @judderbar I found this information to test the coil pack. It's in a PDF he uploaded to the forums.

The primary read around 0.57 Ω.
The values I read on both HT coils are higher than those. The current temperature is about 11 ºC, which should make the resistance lower.
In the secondary circuity I have around 13 KΩ. On both sides.
My current coil pack is an aftermarket coil pack from Bosch. It has about 6 years of operation.

Interesting enough, in the diagram enough, there is no connection to ground, or to the chassis of the car, for the secondary coils? Should it be connected, or that part was omitted from the diagram.

 

[varesecrazy]

It's a shame this pack serves all 4 plugs, so is expensive to replace

I recall mine was @£80 ,where the 2 output coils were £18

 

[jackwhoo]

No the HT secondary windings should not connect to ground- the sparks jump to the ground part of the spark plug

 

[jackwhoo]

Use spark plugs laying on metal part of engine - look to see you get sparks at all 4 splits when key turned to start car /starter motor turning

You cannot fully check that type of coil pack by resistance check

 

[crankshaft]

Interesting enough, in the diagram enough, there is no connection to ground, or to the chassis of the car, for the secondary coils? Should it be connected, or that part was omitted from the diagram.

No the HT secondary windings should not connect to ground- the sparks jump to the ground part of the spark plug

Sorry, I reread what I wrote, and I expressed myself incorrectly, in broken English.
I know that I don't have to make any connections to ground. That whole paragraph was more of an afterthought about how does the electricity closes the circuit loop in the secondary winding. Looking to the diagram there is a voltage differential being generated between the two spark plugs, as the coil charges up. then the electricity jumps to ground, without any sort of connection, like a middle tap in the secondary windings?
This is just an afterthought, I know none of this is related to my problem. It's me trying to understand how the coil pack works.
I know I don't have to make any additional connections to ground.

 

[crankshaft]

Use spark plugs laying on metal part of engine - look to see you get sparks at all 4 splits when key turned to start car /starter motor turning

You cannot fully check that type of coil pack by resistance check

I will test. I will use the old spark plugs to see if I have a spark being generated.

I just removed the new spark plugs, and they were wet with petrol/gasoline.
I turned the engine, resorting to the starter motor, and I could see little specs of carbon deposits (?) coming out of the spark plug well. Just jumping out. Is this normal?

 

[crankshaft]

You cannot fully check that type of coil pack by resistance check

I will test. I will use the old spark plugs to see if I have a spark being generated.

Ok, just tested. I have spark on all the plugs. Wires, plugs and coil pack are ok.

I turned the engine, resorting to the starter motor, and I could see little specs of carbon deposits (?) coming out of the spark plug well. Just jumping out. Is this normal?

It has sparks, and it has gasoline.
Mentioning this situation to a mechanic, he believes the engine lost compression, because sooth got into the valves.

 

[varesecrazy]

Ok, just tested. I have spark on all the plugs. Wires, plugs and coil pack are ok.



It has sparks, and it has gasoline.
Mentioning this situation to a mechanic, he believes the engine lost compression, because sooth got into the valves.

So.. Has the coolant level dropped?

 

[crankshaft]

So.. Has the coolant level dropped?

It did, is a bit below the minimum mark, I noticed that yesterday.
I had the distribution changed, 4 months ago (not by me). But I never checked to see the coolant level. I thought it was left with air on the circuit that eventually dropped the level far down. But because I never check, is hard to know what was the original level, and how much it dropped.

You suspect a gasket problem?

 

[jackwhoo]

Ok, just tested. I have spark on all the plugs. Wires, plugs and coil pack are ok.



It has sparks, and it has gasoline.
Mentioning this situation to a mechanic, he believes the engine lost compression, because sooth got into the valves.

Ok do the test again but bend the spark plug earth electrodes straight so the spark has to jump from centre to outside of plug , about 5mm.

If you still get sparks on all 4 plugs there is enough energy to make the spark in the compressed air / fuel mixture in engine.

If you don't get sparks on one or more plugs then there is not enough spark energy.

 

[varesecrazy]

It did, is a bit below the minimum mark, I noticed that yesterday.
I had the distribution changed,

But because I never check, is hard to know what was the original level, and how much it dropped.

You suspect a gasket problem?

It's a posibility,

But if BAD you would expect to see a difference in Sparkplug surface condition..
You have not mentioned this

 

[crankshaft]

It's a posibility,

But if BAD you would expect to see a difference in Sparkplug surface condition..
You have not mentioned this

I don't know how to tell if the spark plug's surface has differences.
They look like this

Ok do the test again but bend the spark plug earth electrodes straight so the spark has to jump from centre to outside of plug , about 5mm.

I will try that tomorrow

 

[AndyRKett]

A how to, for running a compression test on this engine, slightly older engine but the process and the basic engine is the same.



It’s possible the cam belt has jumped some teeth, when was the cambelt last changed ?

 

[varesecrazy]

It’s possible the cam belt has jumped some teeth, when was the cambelt last changed ?

4 months ago? For timing belt / Distribution

That plug looks "old school dirty"

Modern plugs just have a
"Biscuit Brown" dusting, that is more Black

My experience of Head Gasket can be 2 x "Used" looking plugs, and 2 others looking like new.. Or with traces of Rust / Corrosion
(as most failures link 2 cylinders.. So 2 cylinders are now "pumping coolant")

 

[crankshaft]

Ok do the test again but bend the spark plug earth electrodes straight so the spark has to jump from centre to outside of plug , about 5mm.

Tested this. Got sparks on all 4 HT leads.

It’s possible the cam belt has jumped some teeth, when was the cambelt last changed ?

It was recently changed. I can't do a compression test, because I don't have a pressure gauge, or a compression test kit.

The mechanic told me to keep trying to start the car. That is probably sooth inside the engine that is jamming the valves, and the car will start and clear the "debris". The origin of these debris or sooth is from me cleaning the spark plug threads on the engine head.
I am gonna try to use Starter Fluid to see if I can start it before the battery dies out for good.
Do you guys think this could work?

 

[crankshaft]

My experience of Head Gasket can be 2 x "Used" looking plugs, and 2 others looking like new.. Or with traces of Rust / Corrosion

They all look about the same to me. It could be safe to say my Punto's engine is not yet pumping coolant.
Car still doesn't start. This turned into a huge mess

If I try using start fluid, what can I expect to happen? Never tried to use that before.

 

[varesecrazy]

Starting fluid..

Should at least chug trying to run

That will highlight a fuel supply issue


For clarity!

What does your dashboard show..?

Fuel gauge climbs,

Immobikiser/key code light

On for 3 seconds then goes off

Whirring of fuel pump for 5 to 10 Seconds

AFTER 10 Seconds..

Left with Red Battery
Red Oil And
Yellow Engine lights

 

[AndyRKett]

Tested this. Got sparks on all 4 HT leads.



It was recently changed. I can't do a compression test, because I don't have a pressure gauge, or a compression test kit.

The Kit in the Video above was about £15 here in the UK so maybe 20euros max from amazon.

The mechanic told me to keep trying to start the car. That is probably sooth inside the engine that is jamming the valves, and the car will start and clear the "debris". The origin of these debris or sooth is from me cleaning the spark plug threads on the engine head.

This is the biggest load of nonsense I've heard in a long time. A compression test will tell you if you have valve stuck open.

You need Fuel, you need a spark, you need air and you need compression. If you have established you have fuel and a spark, the next logical step is to make sure you have air and compression which a compression test will tell you. Continually trying to start the engine is just going to flood the cylinders, wash the oil out of the bores and risk causing damage to the engine.

I am gonna try to use Starter Fluid to see if I can start it before the battery dies out for good.
Do you guys think this could work?

No not if you already have fuel and a spark, you're just adding more fuel with starter fluid = more flooding of the engine

 

[crankshaft]

Starting fluid..

Should at least chug trying to run

That will highlight a fuel supply issue


For clarity!

What does your dashboard show..?

Fuel gauge climbs,

Immobikiser/key code light

On for 3 seconds then goes off

Whirring of fuel pump for 5 to 10 Seconds

AFTER 10 Seconds..

Left with Red Battery
Red Oil And
Yellow Engine lights

Yes.
And the car as fuel in the tank.
I plugged MultiECUSacan and there are no fault codes.