Panda (Classic) Project Panda-looking Pandas.

[VmanC]

Sorry for the late report, an unscheduled hospital visit took up all my posting time yesterday.

Short answer to Panto's problem is, head gasket's blown. :bang:

It was noticed on the Scottish Panda camp trip that Panto was a little smokey on overrun (diagnostic benefits of convoying. Also useful for finding faulty rear lights etc). I had suspected valve stem oil seals or valve guide wear, both of which we could live with for a while. I did wonder if it may also be a head gasket issue but regular checks of the coolant level since showed no loss.

Over the last few weeks there has been an intermittent problem on initial start up. The engine would appear to run on three cylinders for a few seconds before clearing and running fine. I figured this may be a fuel delivery issue that could clear itself with use so carried on moving Panto about without further, potentially time wasting, investigation.

I was fully aware that both of these symptoms could point to the head gasket but because a new one was fitted when the engine was installed I felt it was unlikely.

The starting up misfire did cure itself for a while but came back again just last week. I decided that Gavin could keep an eye on this just as well as I could so took Panto to Mitcar for the handover anyway. The drive up was fine, Panto going as well as ever. Then about five miles from the venue my satnav took me down the same closed road Gavin discovered. After turning round and driving back to wait at some traffic lights I noticed white smoke from the exhaust blowing forwards past the car. Hmm, not been that bad before. He was still running well though so I carried on to the show. When I pulled up in the field he was still pretty smokey.
When it was time to go home though he just would not start, firing on just one cyl. Thanks to the loan of some tools from Andrew ( Firstcar Y10), and a soft wire brush from Stephen (Homeward) we were able to check the spark plugs. The two middle ones looked very suspect, this plus the fact that the cooling system was immediately pressurising confirmed that the head gasket had gone.
Of course there could be head issues rather than the gasket failing, I hope to be able to lift the head by the end of the week when all will be revealed.

Big thank you to all who helped out, particularly Homeward and Dombooth who kept me company until the AA arrived. :worship:
The first van only took me as far as Toddington services because that was the edge of his area, so a second van turned up to take me home.

I do have pics and info to post relating to the work recently carried out so will try to post this as soon as time allows.

 

[homeward]

Sorry for the late report, an unscheduled hospital visit took up all my posting time yesterday...

Hope all is well. :hug:

Then about five miles from the venue my satnav took me down the same closed road Gavin discovered...

Sounds like several of us went this way...!

Take it easy....

 

[Palio]

Sorry for the late report, an unscheduled hospital visit took up all my posting time yesterday.

Short answer to Panto's problem is, head gasket's blown. :bang:

It was noticed on the Scottish Panda camp trip that Panto was a little smokey on overrun (diagnostic benefits of convoying. Also useful for finding faulty rear lights etc). I had suspected valve stem oil seals or valve guide wear, both of which we could live with for a while. I did wonder if it may also be a head gasket issue but regular checks of the coolant level since showed no loss.

Over the last few weeks there has been an intermittent problem on initial start up. The engine would appear to run on three cylinders for a few seconds before clearing and running fine. I figured this may be a fuel delivery issue that could clear itself with use so carried on moving Panto about without further, potentially time wasting, investigation.

I was fully aware that both of these symptoms could point to the head gasket but because a new one was fitted when the engine was installed I felt it was unlikely.

The starting up misfire did cure itself for a while but came back again just last week. I decided that Gavin could keep an eye on this just as well as I could so took Panto to Mitcar for the handover anyway. The drive up was fine, Panto going as well as ever. Then about five miles from the venue my satnav took me down the same closed road Gavin discovered. After turning round and driving back to wait at some traffic lights I noticed white smoke from the exhaust blowing forwards past the car. Hmm, not been that bad before. He was still running well though so I carried on to the show. When I pulled up in the field he was still pretty smokey.
When it was time to go home though he just would not start, firing on just one cyl. Thanks to the loan of some tools from Andrew ( Firstcar Y10), and a soft wire brush from Stephen (Homeward) we were able to check the spark plugs. The two middle ones looked very suspect, this plus the fact that the cooling system was immediately pressurising confirmed that the head gasket had gone.
Of course there could be head issues rather than the gasket failing, I hope to be able to lift the head by the end of the week when all will be revealed.

Big thank you to all who helped out, particularly Homeward and Dombooth who kept me company until the AA arrived. :worship:
The first van only took me as far as Toddington services because that was the edge of his area, so a second van turned up to take me home.

I do have pics and info to post relating to the work recently carried out so will try to post this as soon as time allows.

or - not quite sure yet.....



The head gaskets aren't usually fragile on the 16v engine so I'd guess it's a poor quality gasket? Annoying when something done just in case as a preventative measure buggers it up - excuse the technical term!

Really odd set up with the AA - why they didn't send a local recovery firm to take you the whole journey is beyond me. What a waste of time & resources!

 

[homeward]

or - not quite sure yet.....



The head gaskets aren't usually fragile on the 16v engine so I'd guess it's a poor quality gasket? Annoying when something done just in case as a preventative measure buggers it up - excuse the technical term!

Really odd set up with the AA - why they didn't send a local recovery firm to take you the whole journey is beyond me. What a waste of time & resources!

On the Mk2 16v, the answer is always "it's your head gasket" -- so what did FIAT do to make it become so unreliable? (Mind you: a lot of it is down to servicing, of course -- but, on the Mk2, they tend to go between 90,000 and 100,000 miles, regardless....)

I was the same about the thumb....

And even the patrolman seemed a little peeved that they'd sent him instead of a transporter. :nono:

 

[AndyPanda4x4]

Sorry to hear of the unfortunate mispleasure of the weekend's outing, good job though you guys all worked together to help each other out in different ways, and ofcourse Panto! looks great in the pics, even if a little broken

 

[VmanC]

Hope all is well. :hug:



Sounds like several of us went this way...!

Take it easy....

Thank you Stephen, didn't mean to mislead but it was future son in law who needed to be taken to hospital. All ok now though.

 

[Alixcompo]

Yeah, that's why the AA call their service 'Relay' not 'Recovery'. It's like catching buses.
I changed to the RAC in 1976 for this very reason and the fact that they would'nt 'recover' from accidents.
I was a motorcycle dispatcher at the time and a minor spill or the bike toppling over when parked, rather went with the territory. Irritating when a broken lever/pedal/handlebar found me refused the service I was paying for.

 

[homeward]

Yeah, that's why the AA call their service 'Relay' not 'Recovery'. It's like catching buses.
I changed to the RAC in 1976 for this very reason and the fact that they would'nt 'recover' from accidents.
I was a motorcycle dispatcher at the time and a minor spill or the bike toppling over when parked, rather went with the territory. Irritating when a broken lever/pedal/handlebar found me refused the service I was paying for.

It's why I've always been with the RAC: until we got 'free' cover with our joint bank account -- and I think VmanC is in the same boat.... (It's certainly a lot less expensive than paying for single membership; never mind for both of us....)

 

[Alixcompo]

Have you and Vern got a joint account then.? I suppose it makes sense because you do always have a car or two at HQ.

 

[pandamaniac]

I reckon it's only a joint bank account.....

 

[homeward]

We were having a discussion at MITcar about getting a Classic Panda section breakdown truck. I think I may have found it; and it's only down the road from Panda Central...!

 

[panda panda]

So Vernon comes to all Panda meets in a truck just in case?

 

[homeward]

So Vernon comes to all Panda meets in a truck just in case?

I think, to be fair, we should take it in turns...!

 

[VmanC]

What happens if the truck breaks down?

 

[panda panda]

What happens if the truck breaks down?

Call the AA?

 

[VmanC]

Update on some of the work carried out prior to the head gasket incident........


It was decided that Panto may suit those wind deflectors that seem to be getting popular on Pandas so I fitted a spare set I had..........







I think it looks fine with or without, so it's down to practical reasons for me, and as I've chosen to have them on the Blue clx I guess I'd keep them. Gavin, the choice is yours.

I've also been revamping the roof lining, which on the twin sunnies comes in two sections. The original covering was pretty grotty so would have needed replacing anyway, but as the underside of the sunroofs is black the roof lining needed to be the same.

















As you can see from the pics, before I could fit the new material I had to scrape off all the old foam and make a couple of repairs with fibre glass. The new material is the same as that used for the dashboard and is much blacker than it looks in the pics.


The Alfa seats don't have height adjustment on the passenger seat and the height it's set at is about an inch higher than the drivers seat at its lowest setting. Now in Panto the drivers seat is best set at the lowest setting for most drivers, certainly for Gavin and myself, and as a result the front seats are always out of align. Also, the passenger seat was too high for most passengers anyway, leaving their heads touching the sunroof. I wasn't happy to leave things this way so decided to make another, slimmer, subframe that evens things up..........



It worked very well so will be my design for Alfa seats from now on. This one has an additional cross bar because I wanted to mount the stereo's amp on it, unfortunately the amp was too big and fouled on the seat adjust bar (back/forward) when the seat was moved back. I still think it's a good location for an amp so will be looking for a smaller one.


And so to the carpet.*

As the passenger seat was coming out anyway it was a good time to fit the new carpet, so out came the rest of the seats and the old grey carpet.......



I had two pieces of carpet. One was thin and more flexible for around the sides, then a thicker felt backed piece for the floor which should give better sound proofing.





I did add some extra sound proofing too, doesn't show up too well in the pic because of the shadows....



Carpet, particularly the felt backed, is a real pain as it doesn't do compound curves but I did get there in the end......





That's it for this post, more on the head next.

 

[homeward]

I had a lot of time, on Sunday, to admire the interior... -- and it is very swish indeed; and a very nice place to be...! :worship:

 

[Palio]

I had a lot of time, on Sunday, to admire the interior... -- and it is very swish indeed; and a very nice place to be...! :worship:

I'm rather to admit that I didn't see the interior on Sunday!!! When we got there Panto was smoking & I was saying hello to everyone, then VmanC was cleaning him, then we wandered round the show & castle, and by the time we got back there was much excitement in the engine bay. I did notice the wind deflectors & thought they looked good, but haven't seen either the roof lining or carpet yet!

It looks good in the pictures though.

 

[VmanC]

Well Panto is running fine again.

When we removed the head we found this.......





It may not be too obvious from the pics but what we found was a blow around the central area. We diagnosed at Mitcar that cyls. 2 and 3 were the problem areas, this just confirms it. The machine shop I took the head to found there to be a slight bow in the head of 5 thou so this was machined off to make it flat again.



The valves had to be removed to allow for the machining to be carried out, this is when 16v heads become less appealing . At least it allowed us to fit new valve stem oil seals. Panto had always smoked a little on overrun which led me to suspect the seals were worn so it was good to replace them, although the smoking could have been burning waterless coolant because of the head gasket, but the coolant level never went down during this time so I guess we'll never know. Anyway he doesn't smoke now and that's what matters.

While the head was apart we kept the hydraulic tappets submerged in oil as you're supposed to, but still they took ages to pump up once the engine had started. The first time we ran the engine they didn't pump up at all causing me to remove them again and try to prime them by hand. When refitted they were still noisy but we went for a long run and finally they quietened down. :bang:
They didn't take that long the first time we ran the engine so I'm confused as to why they were being so stubborn now. Stuart and Matt (Vernon's little helpers ) said they had known of Vauxhall tappets to need a good run before they respond, so maybe it's just pot luck.


Other jobs ticked off the list are fitment of the stereo system, the front wheel arch liners, and rectifying the interior light not working.

I had fitted a delay unit to the interior light circuit and also an L.E.D. bulb to the light itself, turns out the two don't like working together . I have now fitted a normal bulb back in and all is fine.

I managed to find an amplifer small enough to fit under the passenger seat and this has now been wired in. The rear speakers are now also fitted, only the grilles had been fitted to the side panels until that point. I didn't want to fit the speakers themselves to the side panels as they wouldn't have been rigid enough with the extra power so I made a mounting board so that they could be bolted to the body.



I thought I'd taken pics of the amp & speakers but can't find them, will take some more tomorrow The front speakers now have white grilles to give more of a black/white theme so I wanted to show this to get opinions on how they look, well mainly Gavin's.

Oh, Panto now has a new registration no. F1 ATP. Very nice, and a very clever move by Gavin to obtian it I think. :worship:

We are very nearly at the finishing post now. I wasn't happy with the fitting of the carpet so I bought a new piece while at the NEC to make a better job of it. This should be fitted in a couple of days after I get my workshop back (having a 2 post ramp fitted), so I hope you've found the Sisleys keys Gavin, I could be coming for him by the end of the week.

P.S. Panto also now has a cigar lighter, or power point as they are now called.

 

[Didge3]

Does this mean Panto can rescue me (...again) if I break down on my way tomorrow?