Tuning Panda 319 1.4 swap ???

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

I own a 319 1.2 69hp 8v fire panda, good lord it's gutless past 2nd gear, is there a reason nobody has done an abarth 1.4 t-jet swap ? I mean the dam thing fits in a 500 it would definitely fit a panda, engine mounts even look the same. I dont know how you'd get past mot and emissions though, not sure how happy the dvla would be with you

 

[rmjbn1]

Hi and welcome
You're probably better off in the 319 Panda section (we're 169s here): https://www.fiatforum.com/forums/panda-2012.225/
Anything is do-able with deep enough pockets.
Are you sure it's not just your car? Have you tried other 1.2 319s to see if they feel the same as yours?
Obviously the 1.2 isn't very powerful, but it generates maximum torque from just 2500rpm, and the Panda is fairly light.
Have you tried a 100HP 1.4 Panda 169?
If they're all too gutless for you, I'd guess a more powerful car might be a better solution than an engine transplant.

 

[koalar]

Has a t-jet been done
Yes in the Panda 169 there's a 270hp track car knocking about

Also the 60HP engines on the 169 have been tuned to 130HP on the standard ECU

And 160HP on an aftermarket ECU and throttle body




None of which is cheap or easy,

 

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

Hi and welcome
You're probably better off in the 319 Panda section (we're 169s here): https://www.fiatforum.com/forums/panda-2012.225/
Anything is do-able with deep enough pockets.
Are you sure it's not just your car? Have you tried other 1.2 319s to see if they feel the same as yours?
Obviously the 1.2 isn't very powerful, but it generates maximum torque from just 2500rpm, and the Panda is fairly light.
Have you tried a 100HP 1.4 Panda 169?
If they're all too gutless for you, I'd guess a more powerful car might be a better solution than an engine transplant.

Oh I didn't realise there were panda specific forums, I routinely get smoked by old vauxhall astra 16v it pulls real nice in 2nd but any hill especially a 60mph limit and I'm done, if I want to overtake at 70mph up an incline I need 3rd gear and 5000rpm

 

[rmjbn1]

if I want to overtake at 70mph up an incline I need 3rd gear and 5000rpm

Well, there's nowt wrong with that, they like to rev...
...unless that's on a motorway? In which case, no, that doesn't sound right to me, my old 60HP can pick up its skirts all right in top when cruising around 70mph.

You're not the first to make this comment about the later 69HP 1.2...
This old post says the same about being gutless in third, the thread might be interesting to you: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/panda-1-2-69bhp-flat-spot.350134/#post-3479741

Also some mention of a software update and relearn helping: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/new-yesterday.346194/

The 69HP does seem to develop its power slightly higher in the rev range, then develop more bhp as the VVT kicks in.
Apparently fairly similar power curves, but there's a fair bit of anecdotal evidence on here that the 69 needs to be worked harder than the 60: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/60-vs-69.495846/#post-4649153

Maybe what you need is a 60HP 169 Panda Or a MultiJet or TwinAir 319?

 

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

Well, there's nowt wrong with that, they like to rev...
...unless that's on a motorway? In which case, no, that doesn't sound right to me, my old 60HP can pick up its skirts all right in top when cruising around 70mph.

You're not the first to make this comment about the later 69HP 1.2...
This old post says the same about being gutless in third, the thread might be interesting to you: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/panda-1-2-69bhp-flat-spot.350134/#post-3479741

Also some mention of a software update and relearn helping: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/new-yesterday.346194/

The 69HP does seem to develop its power slightly higher in the rev range, then develop more bhp as the VVT kicks in.
Apparently fairly similar power curves, but there's a fair bit of anecdotal evidence on here that the 69 needs to be worked harder than the 60: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/60-vs-69.495846/#post-4649153

Maybe what you need is a 60HP 169 Panda Or a MultiJet or TwinAir 319?

Hmm the twinair is horrible on fuel, it's a single cam 8v it doesn't have vvt ? Or does it really, it honestly doesn't feel like it wants to rev that high, peak is at 5500 but feels strained, the throttle response I've solved with a sprint booster but I routinely shoot down and up the A361 and if any of you know that route it has lots of uphill dual carriageways, honestly 100hp would satisfy me, 110 would be incredible, anything more I would question longevity, as someone else mentioned it dies in 3rd gear compared to 2nd, I imagine wind resistance is a factor, in the end I think a supercharger is the way to go ? I mean the 8v doesn't flow like the old 16v 100hp

 

[jrkitching]

is there a reason nobody has done an abarth 1.4 t-jet swap

The most likely reason is that if you want abarth 1.4 tjet performance, the cheapest and easiest way to get it is to go out and buy an abarth 1.4 tjet.

If they're all too gutless for you, I'd guess a more powerful car might be a better solution than an engine transplant.

That. The 1.2 Panda suits a certain driving style particularly well, but I don't think that's your preferred driving style.

A TA Panda might have been a better choice for you, but you pay the price for the increased performance in fuel economy and later life repair costs.

 

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

The most likely reason is that if you want abarth 1.4 tjet performance, the cheapest and easiest way to get it is to go out and buy an abarth 1.4 tjet.


That. The 1.2 Panda suits a certain driving style particularly well, but I don't think that's your preferred driving style.

A TA Panda might have been a better choice for you, but you pay the price for the increased performance in fuel economy and later life repair costs.

Im gonna have to just deal with ragging it everywhere because I can't afford the insurance for anything else, remaps are a 7hp gain which is useless for how much it costs

 

[koalar]

remaps are a 7hp gain which is useless for how much it costs

Over 10%

Who's offering that

More importantly how

It normally takes a combination of porting valves, camshaft, compression ratio, inlet manifold and throttle body to see any gains

Without doing the above first a full decat and race exhaust dynoed at plus 3 and that was only at the top end, and zero lower down the revs range

 

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

Over 10%

Who's offering that

More importantly how

It normally takes a combination of porting valves, camshaft, compression ratio, inlet manifold and throttle body to see any gains

Without doing the above first a full decat and race exhaust dynoed at plus 3 and that was only at the top end, and zero lower down the revs range

Yeah it sucks, its just a chip I found at random one day, shame they didn't give it 16 valves, it's has 18hp per 310cc, my 50 year old bike has 11hp and 100cc, I just can't figure out why they made it so goddam slow, amr500 supercharger would be the cheapest way of getting significant gains, a chipped twinair turbo makes good power

 

[jrkitching]

I just can't figure out why they made it so goddam slow

Because Fiat prioritised reliability, economy and low manufacturing cost over performance. When your car was new, it was one of the cheapest new cars you could buy, and also one of the most fuel efficient. They were aimed at, and bought by, a specific segment of the market.

And the formula works; I got a 169 new, over 13 years ago. I've still got it, had to repair almost nothing, and averaged over 55mpg. £30 tax, <£200 pa insurance, motoring doesn't get any less expensive than that. Folks regularly crack jokes about Fiat's reliability, but mine has been the least troublesome car I've ever owned, and I'm well north of 100k miles in now. A large part of that reliability has been down to driving it gently and respecting its limitations.

If I'd wanted performance, then back in the day, I'd have spent another £1500 or so, and bought a 100HP. If I were buying a used 312 today and valued performance over running costs, then I'd buy a TA. But after factoring in the extra costs of fuel, insurance and repairs, I'd expect either option would cost significantly more to run than a 1.2.

The 1.2 Panda is what it is, it does what it does, and it does that very well. If you drive it within its limits; it'll reward you with comfortable, reliable economic motoring. If your goal in life is to overtake things going uphill at 70mph, it'll disappoint you.

 

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

Because Fiat prioritised reliability, economy and low manufacturing cost over performance. When your car was new, it was one of the cheapest new cars you could buy, and also one of the most fuel efficient. They were aimed at, and bought by, a specific segment of the market.

And the formula works; I got a 169 new, over 13 years ago. I've still got it, had to repair almost nothing, and averaged over 55mpg. £30 tax, <£200 pa insurance, motoring doesn't get any less expensive than that. Folks regularly crack jokes about Fiat's reliability, but mine has been the least troublesome car I've ever owned, and I'm well north of 100k miles in now. A large part of that reliability has been down to driving it gently and respecting its limitations.

If I'd wanted performance, then back in the day, I'd have spent another £1500 or so, and bought a 100HP. If I were buying a used 312 today and valued performance over running costs, then I'd buy a TA. But after factoring in the extra costs of fuel, insurance and repairs, I'd expect either option would cost significantly more to run than a 1.2.

The 1.2 Panda is what it is, it does what it does, and it does that very well. If you drive it within its limits; it'll reward you with comfortable, reliable economic motoring. If your goal in life is to overtake things going uphill at 70mph, it'll disappoint you.

I won't say it's not a good car cos its fabulous, I just wish I'd bought the 100hp at least gone for a twinair. Might have to look around at getting, a 100hp, but my god insurance is crippling, life sucks when you're broke huh.

 

[jrkitching]

I just wish I'd bought the 100hp

There are very few left now that are actually worth buying, and those that there are should perhaps best be kept as potential future classics, rather than being ragged into the ground.

but my god insurance is crippling,

Age and experience will take care of that. Until then, a 1.2 Panda is probably just about the cheapest car you can get for insurance.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well, there's nowt wrong with that, they like to rev...
...unless that's on a motorway? In which case, no, that doesn't sound right to me, my old 60HP can pick up its skirts all right in top when cruising around 70mph.

You're not the first to make this comment about the later 69HP 1.2...
This old post says the same about being gutless in third, the thread might be interesting to you: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/panda-1-2-69bhp-flat-spot.350134/#post-3479741

Also some mention of a software update and relearn helping: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/new-yesterday.346194/

The 69HP does seem to develop its power slightly higher in the rev range, then develop more bhp as the VVT kicks in.
Apparently fairly similar power curves, but there's a fair bit of anecdotal evidence on here that the 69 needs to be worked harder than the 60: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/60-vs-69.495846/#post-4649153

Maybe what you need is a 60HP 169 Panda Or a MultiJet or TwinAir 319?

I understand the feeling re the power, but you need to make use of the engine you have. Its A VVT and jusy doesnt respond in the mid ro low end of the rev range. However, if you grab ot by the scruff of the neck and get the revs over 4000 much netter progress can be made. While constant thrashing isnt ideal, this motor has been designed to rev. I find I can get the thing going with the use of a heavier foot.

On the business of modifying,I can only say I regret wasting so much money on trying to make old cars go like a new one. Cars vacuum money out of mens wallets so fast its silly. My view is its better to just decide what you want out of a car and go buy iy, Modofied cars are rarely worth much second hand and I wouldnt touch one at all, I would always go for properly serviced and original. You pump money into the car and then its worhtless. In addition someone pulls up along side on something nice and you think, I would like one of those.... But you have no money, all spent on mods, and you PX is unwanted by anyone other than you. Best advice, save your money, even better invest it, and buy a better car.

Alternatively find a good Panda 100.

You will probably still go ahead anyway and call me an old fart, But you have been told!

 

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

I understand the feeling re the power, but you need to make use of the engine you have. Its A VVT and jusy doesnt respond in the mid ro low end of the rev range. However, if you grab ot by the scruff of the neck and get the revs over 4000 much netter progress can be made. While constant thrashing isnt ideal, this motor has been designed to rev. I find I can get the thing going with the use of a heavier foot.

On the business of modifying,I can only say I regret wasting so much money on trying to make old cars go like a new one. Cars vacuum money out of mens wallets so fast its silly. My view is its better to just decide what you want out of a car and go buy iy, Modofied cars are rarely worth much second hand and I wouldnt touch one at all, I would always go for properly serviced and original. You pump money into the car and then its worhtless. In addition someone pulls up along side on something nice and you think, I would like one of those.... But you have no money, all spent on mods, and you PX is unwanted by anyone other than you. Best advice, save your money, even better invest it, and buy a better car.

Alternatively find a good Panda 100.

You will probably still go ahead anyway and call me an old fart, But you have been told!

I've been giving you false impressions about what I think about my panda, I love it, it looks great, the gearbox is fabulous, the engine is sweet and it drives nice, yes I know I sound like a hypocrit, I'm 18 and it's my first car, on those slogs up the dual carriageway, where I'm trying to pass lorries or I get smoked by an old vauxhall sh*tbox it's wears on me a bit, we are all teenagers once, having said that 2nd gear is magical, nippy af. I'm toying with the idea of buying a super cheap replacement engine and working on it to see what I can learn.8 Ofc I don't want mess with my ol reliable daily, isn't that the truth cars are money vacuums. Not as much as old motorcycles though, once someone takes me as an apprentice things will move forward.

 

[The Panda Nut]

No Im sure you love it. Who couldnt like the Panda, and I agree it would be nice to have more power. More power though means more fue,l more tyres, more brakes and more insurance costs. I have never had a car that have as much power as I need all the time. Golf 2.0 GTD DSG came close. MY TA 4x4 is an excellent compromise too. Its not fast and someone always feels the need to fly past and then get in the way on every journey, but it can overtake impressively. If you get your engine, I hope you learn a lot with it, You will learn a lot. With these ECU engines and can bus systems you are braver than me thinking of doing a swap. Bring back the good old days when you could whizz teh 848 A series and drop in a 1300 cc motor in a day. Same used to be the case witht Fords and Vauxhall of the daytoo.

 

[Pandapowerrrrrrr]

No Im sure you love it. Who couldnt like the Panda, and I agree it would be nice to have more power. More power though means more fue,l more tyres, more brakes and more insurance costs. I have never had a car that have as much power as I need all the time. Golf 2.0 GTD DSG came close. MY TA 4x4 is an excellent compromise too. Its not fast and someone always feels the need to fly past and then get in the way on every journey, but it can overtake impressively. If you get your engine, I hope you learn a lot with it, You will learn a lot. With these ECU engines and can bus systems you are braver than me thinking of doing a swap. Bring back the good old days when you could whizz teh 848 A series and drop in a 1300 cc motor in a day. Same used to be the case witht Fords and Vauxhall of the daytoo.

My god yes, I would love a mercedes 190e with an om605 turbo, my insurance is £470 with a box, as I said a while ago I was quoted £2200 to Insure a 64hp 660cc susuki cappuccino, that's why the situation I'm in is tough, I'm not bound by what car I can afford, it's what I can afford to insure, the panda strikes a perfect balance between modern and old, simple and sophisticated, I will definitely be making a new exhaust for it as mine rattles. And maybe a custom Intake, catch can so on, it'll be a fairly long term car. But not gonna go crazy

 

[rmjbn1]

Aye, insurance is pretty mean on young drivers.
But it'll be absolutely crippling if you bolt any go-faster bits on it.
And if you don't tell 'em it's been modified then it'll invalidate your insurance, so don't do that.
There's really no way to win, you just need to be patient.
I'd guess most of us started out on low-powered cars. 2CV here, with all of 29bhp...
But you know what? I miss it terribly, had some of the most fun I've ever had in a car. Even overtook something going uphill once, but that was in snow
And I'd put the Panda in the same bracket.
Yes, you need to work it hard to get the most out of it, but that's part of the fun

 

[rmjbn1]

With these ECU engines and can bus systems you are braver than me thinking of doing a swap. Bring back the good old days when you could whizz teh 848 A series and drop in a 1300 cc motor in a day. Same used to be the case witht Fords and Vauxhall of the daytoo.

Agree, anything with an ECU just doesn't lend itself to being tuned the old-school way.
Induction kits, fast road cams and exhausts just aren't going to do much apart from cost you a fortune and make your car worthless.
If you have space and money, then an old (pre-90's) car would probably make a better project for fettling.

 

[koalar]

, but that's part of the fun

I liked the older cars with 155, really suited the lower power, Although I"d advise anyone to use a race track not the road if pushing a car to the limit