Technical Panda 2013 4x4 juddering back end

[Fawcedani]

Question for you.

The panda is juddering really badly around the back end, happens at low speeds 0-25mph. Even happens if it's in neutral, as long as the wheels are turning.

One think that stumped me is the fact that it doesn't happen when cold, takes 15mins of driving for it to start happening.

I thought maybe the propshaft, I did have a quick look yesterday , but couldn't see anything obvious.

Any ideas?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

This was covered in another recent thread. Try the forum search to find it. (Problem turned out to be the tyres)

 

[Jamie KC]

Here’s the link -
Thread 'Panda 4x4 clonking/juddering'
https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/panda-4x4-clonking-juddering.502664/

Does sound suspiciously similar

 

[bugsymike]

This was covered in another recent thread. Try the forum search to find it. (Problem turned out to be the tyres)

I tend to agree with @Herts Hillhopper, tyres with a different amount of wear/size etc. especially if no centre diff could cause "wind up" in the transmission.
Older Land Rovers with "part time" 4x4 could judder when back on tarmac roads if stuck in 4x4 drive.
On a slightly different note, I had a customer with a nearly new Ssangyon Rexton 4x4 , I located the noise coming from the chain driven transfer box to the front wheels.He took it to the dealers and as they wouldn't do it under warranty , their answer was to remove the front propshaft!
I am not suggesting that is the cause, merely if easy to try as a means of eliminating one possible area.
If it was only when turning and where applicable, a faulty Limited Slip Diff can cause wheel "hopping".
Just a thought, when it hapens, does it go away if after turning the steering left and right?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Also - make sure the ELD button is turned off (no green light showing), or, if a Cross 4x4, that the rotary dial is not set to ‘off road’. These settings must not be selected on tarmac or other grippy surfaces.

With both versions the car automatically (and with no indication on the dash or elsewhere) engages four wheel drive when needed. ‘Forcing’ 4x4 by pressing the ELD or turning the dial to ‘off road’ is rarely needed and must only be done if the going is really slippery or if one wheel is clear of the ground. Selecting these modes on tarmac will ‘wind up’ the propshaft and cause damage to the 4x4 system.

 

[Fawcedani]

EDL is the turned off.... Hardly ever use it.

It wont be tyres, the rears are in good condition, plenty of grip, even wear. I did get some brand new ones for the front a few days back, (the problem persisted before I got the front tyres)

I changed the rear diff oil, which made no difference. I did check the oil that came out, no shavings or anything present in the oil...

I've noticed it doesn't do it as much when rolling down hill, but when I'm accelerating uphill at low speed the juddering is terrible.

The confusing thing is that it doesn't do it from a cold start, and takes 15mins of wheel turn for it to come back....

 

[Fawcedani]

I tend to agree with @Herts Hillhopper, tyres with a different amount of wear/size etc. especially if no centre diff could cause "wind up" in the transmission.
Older Land Rovers with "part time" 4x4 could judder when back on tarmac roads if stuck in 4x4 drive.
On a slightly different note, I had a customer with a nearly new Ssangyon Rexton 4x4 , I located the noise coming from the chain driven transfer box to the front wheels.He took it to the dealers and as they wouldn't do it under warranty , their answer was to remove the front propshaft!
I am not suggesting that is the cause, merely if easy to try as a means of eliminating one possible area.
If it was only when turning and where applicable, a faulty Limited Slip Diff can cause wheel "hopping".
Just a thought, when it hapens, does it go away if after turning the steering left and right?

No it judders I both when on the streight, and cornering. If at low speeds (below 35)

 

[bugsymike]

No issues with drive shaft joints?
I have no experience of the EDL side, but is it possible for it to "stick on"after being used in the past on your system.
Would it be possible to support safely all four wheels off the ground and turn wheels by hand to get a better idea of any misbehaving.
Perhaps another Forum member who has more detailed knowledge can advise re that.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

No issues with drive shaft joints?
I have no experience of the EDL side, but is it possible for it to "stick on"after being used in the past on your system.
Would it be possible to support safely all four wheels off the ground and turn wheels by hand to get a better idea of any misbehaving.
Perhaps another Forum member who has more detailed knowledge can advise re that.

'ELD' is a misleading name here. Pressing the button (or selecting off road) does nothing to a differential, but actually forces 4x4 by making the solenoid that engages the rear drive to operate. (it does this automatically if wheel slip is detected when the ELD button is off) . Also though, it allows the ABS system to apply the brake to a freely-spinning wheel if it detects that's happening. This braking of one wheel 'simulates' the effect of locking the differential.

I suppose though it is possible that the 4x4 solenoid has 'jammed'? but that wouldn't account for why it doesn't;t judder when cold.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

No it judders I both when on the streight, and cornering. If at low speeds (below 35)

The fact that it happens when going straight too suggests its not any sort of 'winding up'.

Worth checking the centre support bearing of the propshaft - in the 'cage' about half way along. The rubber 'doughnut' that supports that bearing is prone to rotting away.

Also, if the rear discs have been replaced, one method of removing them (they are not easy to get off) is to remove the hub nut and pull the whole thing away including the wheel bearing. There are reports of cases of the bearing falling apart if this is done 'badly'... and may account for why it needs to run a while (get hot) before being an issue?

 

[bugsymike]

Re prop centre mounting, I have had RWD transits that the customer thought was clutch judder pulling away , but I could get with foot off the clutch and was a badly worn rubber mount support for the prop centre bearing.
My old Skoda Scout 4x4 has all the ESP, Yaw Sensors and ABS controlling it , personally I am not a fan of over technical control as expensive when it fails, but it certainly is effective.

 

[porta]

Windup: My Jeep does this if I’ve left it in ‘low’, I have to go into neutral, straighten wheels, put into high, drive forwards and then reverse…this clears it
My 169 cross did this after going through snow and slush with mud, the ELD got ‘confused’, I had to stop, disconnect battery and wait 15+minutes before it would clear (after several attempts). It’s only ever done it once but did ‘appear’ like traditional windup.
What you’re describing doesn’t sound like either, suggest you check bearings, discs and calipers, then move onto driveshafts

 

[tomdee]

I had already talked about a similar problem here, vibration and knocking at low speed and after warming up. The problem was related to a CV joint on one of the front axles that had no grease inside the boot.

 

[Big gerry]

I had a knocking noise coming from the rear and in the end up the rubber mounts that hold up the exhaust were in poor shape and it was letting the exhaust hit the body it happened to me when I went on a journey about ten miles and when you take off from a junction it started but only lasted 10 seconds

 

[Jamie KC]

So it does it in a straight line, does the frequency of the juddering noise start increasing if you weave wide slow turns left and right and then ease back to less frequent when you resume going straight?

 

[Big gerry]

So it does it in a straight line, does the frequency of the juddering noise start increasing if you weave wide slow turns left and right and then ease back to less frequent when you resume going straight?

For my problem no it just happens when you leave a junction or accelerate from a stop

 

[bugsymike]

For my problem no it just happens when you leave a junction or accelerate from a stop

Yours does sound more CV joint related, more one side than another, tighter the turn the worse it is? Has a drive shaft been disturbed for any reason, maybe a CV boot for an MOT or something?

 

[Big gerry]

Yours does sound more CV joint related, more one side than another, tighter the turn the worse it is? Has a drive shaft been disturbed for any reason, maybe a CV boot for an MOT or something?

Sorry I should have said it’s sorted it took me a lot of looking it was the rubber hangers that holds up the exhaust when I took off at a junction the exhaust was hitting the floor

 

[porta]

So not a juddering a banging
Back to the OPs question, have you got any closer?

 

[Fawcedani]

Had the rear wheels balanced earlier, made no difference.

Rear pads and discs do need changing, and is booked in for that in 10 days.

So I'm still none the wiser. Its not a banging, it's juddering, as if it's struggling at the back end.... I'd imagine it's either rear diff, prop shaft or drive shaft.

I have had a look under the car, nothing obvious to see, no damage or movement anywhere.