Panda (Classic) My Sisley, Panda 4x4 - division north

[kolza]

Brill pics Jacob! I am looking forward to doing some of those lanes with you soon! How is the Sisley running now?

New water temp sensor fitted, and it's still showing HOT!!!

What are the chances that gauge in speedo pod is indicating wrong temp? Any body been there?
That's next point to look at.

Radiator fan still kicks in just under 110*C on the speedo gauge, when crawling in 1st/4x4 it does goes close to first thin red mark, as soon as taken back to the road it droops to 100*C ish on the scale.

Weird is that there is not much heat generated by heater fan when in 2nd speed, I've done the bleeding by taking of the heater matrix top hose with engine running till coolant came out of it.

 

[AndyPanda4x4]

New water temp sensor fitted, and it's still showing HOT!!!

What are the chances that gauge in speedo pod is indicating wrong temp? Any body been there?
That's next point to look at.

Radiator fan still kicks in just under 110*C on the speedo gauge, when crawling in 1st/4x4 it does goes close to first thin red mark, as soon as taken back to the road it droops to 100*C ish on the scale.

Weird is that there is not much heat generated by heater fan when in 2nd speed, I've done the bleeding by taking of the heater matrix top hose with engine running till coolant came out of it.

The only time mine read wrong was when I had the earth problems, when it used to do what yours is currently doing. Temp guage went up high but not to the top, also the lights all went dim, wipers slowed too. That turned out to be the alternator that was failing..I have a spare set of dials you are welcome to try them, 4x4 but not Sisley

 

[kolza]

I have a spare set of dials you are welcome to try them, 4x4 but not Sisley

Mine is 4x4 anyway, been swapped over already by one of the previous owner.

I had new Alternator brushes fitted, and all the hedgehogs recrimped, i'll check the Alt negative to battery and engine earth strap.

Thaankd for offer, another reason to visit Masham in Sisley.

 

[kolza]

Does anybody knows what is approx. brake fluid pressure at the rear brake cylinder with the foot down and wheel locked? I'm thinking of the system with the brake servo.

Cheers

 

[kolza]

Above question was clearly releated with my recent research.

Independent Rear wheel Brake line lock to imitate differential lock.

We all know that PAndik done one DIY diff lock, some of us will know that there are rear lock diff kits available for our pandas. Either i'm not skilled enough to do it myself or I don't have over 900 Euro to get one from Italy.

I've seen "Phantom Grip" much cheaper ( bought in or DIY)solution being used on Panda
(@Bart, please comment if you've heard any feedback),

Unfortunately i'm not sure how long rear diff (sun gears) will last with Phatnom Grip fitted in, there is a lot discussion on the web - some say it's OK , some called it "Phantom slip".

My suggested solution is designed to give you two very usefull functions as a hydraulick hand brake (when ignition on) and recovery function in case when stuck in terrain cause two oposite wheels have lost traction, simmilar as big old farm tractor just to allow you move forward couple foots and disengage .

How it's going to work?

Simple - fit two brake line locks ( solenoids ) one on each rear hard brake line, fit two on/off switches next to the speedo pod. To lock the wheels you have to press the brake pedal down first, switch the solenoid ON - take the foot of brake pedal and one wheel will remain lcoked as solenoid will keet the brake piston presurised until sonenoid is relased.

Example situation - not perfect capture - but let me try to explain

Let say your stuck in deep forest on your own - nobody around to give you a "push".
Front wheels does not have enough grip to pul lthe car up the hill, rear left wheel is free spinning, rear right does nothing cause the diff if open type. So set the mechanical handbrak ON, foot brake down - lock rear left wheel via solenoid, realese hand brake and rear left wheel will have full grip now. Release solenoid when locked wheel will get in touch with ground.

What are your opinions guys?

 

[AndyPanda4x4]

It's a good idea Jacob and I see how it will work, I am not sure whether the power of a brake by itself will provide enough pressure to allow power to be sent to the oposite wheel which is under the full weight of the vehicle balanced accross two oposite corners.

To add, I have been in some proper sticky situations like this and have never had this form of problem - the problem is always ground clearance, whether your idea would work in a siruation where you are sat on your sump is another matter, and something that I think you would try before you find out.

A locked diff is great in a Landrover Defender, they have the clutch, gearbox and power to make it work. A Panda as standard does not, even with the obvious difference in weight I think you'd struggle to keep three wheels driving at all times without breaking something fairly integral pretty quickly.

I personally won't be doing the diff-lock, but I think this idea of yours is worth putting into practice just to see if it works as the cheaper option

 

[Bartpanda]

My friend has made a phantom grip for his panda{ the one kozla has shown on the picture I think}. He has also a racing fiat 125 wth revvy 1600 dohc, and also with phantom grip. On tarmac, concrete and other surfaces with good tyre-grip phantoms "work" is almost unnoticeable I am affraid. But in soft mud, sand etc it may provide some additonal traction. The phantoms "friction", its lockng is big enough to make turning the wheel with your hands a big struggle when the one rear wheel is in the air and other touches the ground. That is the way I tested its "locking-peformance".Generally phantomgrips performance much depends on how you prepare the sun gears{the more flat front "face" of the gear the bigger fricton} how strong springs you use, and finally what kind of material you use for the grips plates. Can not say if it's worth the struggle of making phantomgrip, did not try it myself while offroadng, my friend says he noticed the difference on loose surfaces, but it can not be compared with 100% dfflock.

The idea of stopping the slipping wheel with brake is known to me. I have seen simlar project on italian 4x4 forum somewhere, but it was achieved with pure mechanics, just two handbrakes, one for the left and one for the right wheel, you pull the handbrake for the slipping wheel and that's it. Do not know how it performes but sounds ok to me

I am going to use y10 4wd rear axle and make difflock out of its split shafts. Again guys in Italy use y10 4wd axles or just weld the whole diff and drive it. No complans about it except the tyre wear, so either it works and you can live with that, or the guys are not willing to tell the other cons of havng welded diff

 

[andyholli]

I can see that working mechanically. But much complication for a hopefully rare driver error.
Back up and try again with more speed would be my first thought.

Second thought, split the handbrake cable, double up on levers and create fiddle brakes that way. - More subtle analogue system than the electro/hydraulic way.

Edit- Sorry, I missed Bartpanda's post. Glad we agree though.��

 

[kolza]

After reading about Grumbleweed head gasket symtoms, i had closer look on mine - HG is definately on it's way out. When engine started from cold it's running lumpy, whole body is shaking, definately runs on 3 cylinders or less?

Runs much smoother after reaching the temperature- which make sens for me.

Is it neseccery to re-new head bolts? anybody know where to get them for less then £8 each?

I'll inpect sprk plugs to identife which cylinder is weeping...

 

[firstcar-Y10]

Is it neseccery to re-new head bolts? anybody know where to get them for less then £8 each?

yes and
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351072879124?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

or just get

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370555376888?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
with them included.

Sparks in GW all looked fine though

 

[Bartpanda]

When engine started from cold it's running lumpy, whole body is shaking, definately runs on 3 cylinders or less?

like my trekking did with blown head-gasket .Every day in the morning engine started on 3 cyl and after 5 to 15 sec the one "flodded" cyl. started to work after the compresion "dried" the spark plug from the coolant. Except that it ran ok, but boiled a little the coolant with exhaust fumes pressed to the water jacket.

 

[kolza]

Thanks A.

HG set on order - bloody Parts World - you can NOT just go in and by only one part.

HG set £40 plus other bits and boobs for £30.

 

[AndyPanda4x4]

Thanks A.

HG set on order - bloody Parts World - you can NOT just go in and by only one part.

HG set £40 plus other bits and boobs for £30.

Good luck Jacob, hope it sorts your problems

 

[kolza]

I hope it will sort out the issue and improve ride. Coincidently on first page i was suspecting HG. That meas no more green laning for now. I'm guessing head will need to be skimmed a bit.. Just front cam shaft seal more and all ready to go.

 

[kolza]

As it was told in previous posts, to prevent sudden heart attack in the middle of green lane where nobody would be willing to recover me ( AA, Green flag forget about it - as it is off tarmac, nearest farmer - probably would have a laugh) some action must be taken immediately.

And this is how i've left it yesterday

All the intake/exhaust manifold bolts and down pipe ones came off easly, plan for today is separate head from the block toinspect HG and release cam shaft.

 

[andyholli]

Like the plywood radiator guard idea. ��

 

[onemanmade]

As it was told in previous posts, to prevent sudden heart attack in the middle of green lane where nobody would be willing to recover me ( AA, Green flag forget about it - as it is off tarmac, nearest farmer - probably would have a laugh) some action must be taken immediately.

And this is how i've left it yesterday

All the intake/exhaust manifold bolts and down pipe ones came off easly, plan for today is separate head from the block toinspect HG and release cam shaft.

Cam looks good

I agree about the plywood radiator guard too, thats useful I am so clumsy with it!

 

[kolza]

Cylinder head is off now, clearly somebody have been in before me.

There is only one locating dowel left, and use of liquid head gasket fix was confirmed.
I'm not head gasket (not blown through) expert but having sympthomps as described above can I have your opinion?

Suspected areas marked in red.
Click on to enlarge.

https://www.fiatforum.com/gallery/data/3868/IMG_2319_2.JPG

More zoom in photos:

Cyl 1

Cyl 2

Cyl 3

Cyl 4

and more

Next step is to clean the meeting surface and access is the skimming required.

I was expecting to see something more spectacular - is it enough for engine to run on 3 cyl from cold and overheating during normal use?

 

[andyholli]

Can I guess "probably"..?

- It's off now so will be replaced. If no other changes other than to button it up again then the theory will be tested.

If sparks are good and compression is even then water vapour leak in to cylinder is only explanation for 3cylinder start up I can think of.

And if not, then you'll have narrowed the search.

Good luck Jacob.��

 

[kolza]

Some more figures,

Compresion after 5 starter motor revs:

Cyl 1 - 9.25 bar - 134PSI,
Cyl 2 - 10.6 bar - 153PSI,
Cyl 3 - 10.1 bar - 148PSI,
Cyl 4 - 10.5 bar - 152PSI,

Valve clearlance:

1 - 0.45/0.20+,
2 - 0.45/0.25,
3 - 0.25/0.40,
4 - 0.30/0.45,

Am I correct thinking that lower cyl 1 comperions is realeated with valve clearlance being out of tolerance? Shims are only £2 each - is it worth breinging them all back to fiat values?