Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[Most Easterly Pandas]

good luck! i personally would have stopped paying a long time ago. no car, no money = )

Not how it works legally, you'd still be liable to pay, and the issues this could cause could be life changing!

a credit rating is only important if you plan on taking a new loan (credit card, bank loan, fiancing a phone or car, mortgage).

Not so, it also affects a lot of other things, including the pricing of insurance for example! And will affect you for the next 6 years until it disappears from your credit file.

Doing what you've suggested would be very very foolish.

 

[dcs1]

It appears so, Ahmett. This entire week has been a further massive wind up and so far with little result.

After calling Fiat Monday and being promised a call back (but knowing full well they wouldn't), I called them first thing Tuesday wanting to know why they NEVER return calls. I eventually spoke with my case manager at Fiat CS who told me the delays in releasing my vehicle was due to internal administrative processes that regrettably had gotten delayed. He apologised and said that he would hope to have it all 'resolved' by close of play Tuesday.

The dealership has been chasing them ever since as they have not received a return phone call to ANY of their calls, either, and today after yet further false promises by Fiat, my dealer spoke to me saying that he had fired off a stinking email (he actually ccd me in) saying that he couldn't believe how badly they were treating me, how embarrassing it was for them as the dealership given that they represent the brand, and how they suspect that I will never purchase another Fiat ever again.

I also learnt today from the dealer that my car has been sitting on their forecourt for 3 WEEKS. Fiat have not permitted the release of paperwork for all this time and thus, the dealership have not been able to register my car.

I am fuming. I will be phoning FGA Capital (or whatever their new name is) first thing and I will be giving them my very last ultimatum; they get me evidence in WRITING that the car is released and can be collected on Saturday by lunchtime, or I will stop payments with immediate effect and I will see them in court.

I will then be phoning Fiat every 10 minutes until I get put through to this case manager and give him merry hell. I will demand to know why they refuse to let me have a vehicle that I have been waiting and paying for for months. I will demand to know how they think they are acting lawfully when they are effectively holding people's property to ransom.

At the stroke of midday, I will then call the finance company back and demand to know where my email is (because let's face it; it isn't going to arrive). When it isn't in my inbox, I will contact my bank and cancel my payments. And before anyone chirps up that it will affect my credit rating; yes, I'm aware of that and it will do in the short term. That's why I'd be taking Fiat to court.

All the while, I will be keeping the dealership closely informed.

Aside from one gentleman who has contacted me privately, are there anybody else out there who has been in a similar position, i.e. had the hill start model, kicked off at Fiat, got a second replacement car, and for Fiat to renege on the deal and refuse to give the car over?

I also need to start seeking legal advice and will do so from tomorrow lunchtime. Oh, and I'll also be trying to do my job, have a life, put a bullet-point list of my entire sorry tale together and start ringing round the major broadsheet newspapers and gathering together the names of all the car journalists to whom I should be writing to to finally expose Fiat for the lying, cheating scumbags they really are.

I am the gentleman ab4444 refers to. i.e. had the hill start model, kicked off at Fiat, got unqualified offer (from Kay Seaton of Fiat UK Director's Office) of new build second replacement car (ordered by her March 27th to our colour and trim choice, rang us on May 8th informing, whoopee, twinair had now been built, would be with us late May/early June in UK (hopefully for my wife's birthday she said), and then for Fiat to then renege on the deal and refuse to give the car over? Was rung on May 19th by her saying 'good news' the 'fix' for our ESC equipped car was now available. Can't give you the promised car.

The way Fiat UK have raised expectations of people like us and ab4444 before then dropping them from a great height weeks later is SCANDALOUS, after initially refusing there was anything wrong with cars in the first place. We were informed on 24th May that our taking up the offer of a new car would be unaffected if the software fix came through in the interim. I know as I asked the question specifically and my wife also heard her reply as we had our landline phone on speaker. Encouraged us to go out and test drive the car ! Which we then did ! And got back to her three days later, on 27th, saying that yes thanks we'll take up your offer. This lot need exposed.

 

[ahmett]

Not how it works legally, you'd still be liable to pay, and the issues this could cause could be life changing!



Not so, it also affects a lot of other things, including the pricing of insurance for example! And will affect you for the next 6 years until it disappears from your credit file.

Doing what you've suggested would be very very foolish.

but if you win the court case then should be ok no? you are refusing payment because they breached the terms of the contract!

 

[ahmett]

I am the gentleman ab4444 refers to. i.e. had the hill start model, kicked off at Fiat, got unqualified offer (from Kay Seaton of Fiat UK Director's Office) of new build second replacement car (ordered by her March 27th to our colour and trim choice, rang us on May 8th informing, whoopee, twinair had now been built, would be with us late May/early June in UK (hopefully for my wife's birthday she said), and then for Fiat to then renege on the deal and refuse to give the car over? Was rung on May 19th by her saying 'good news' the 'fix' for our ESC equipped car was now available. Can't give you the promised car.

The way Fiat UK have raised expectations of people like us and ab4444 before then dropping them from a great height weeks later is SCANDALOUS, after initially refusing there was anything wrong with cars in the first place. We were informed on 24th May that our taking up the offer of a new car would be unaffected if the software fix came through in the interim. I know as I asked the question specifically and my wife also heard her reply as we had our landline phone on speaker. Encouraged us to go out and test drive the car ! Which we then did ! And got back to her three days later, on 27th, saying that yes thanks we'll take up your offer. This lot need exposed.

oh well at least you learnt now never to buy a fiat again. many of us learn the hard way, including me = )

 

[Super Uwe]

Reading these latest posts this morning, I can't believe what is going on.

Again, I can only reiterate my sympathy. I am self-employed with two young kids and I can't even begin to imagine how I'd have the time or patience to sort this out.

This thread has a long way to go....

 

[ahmett]

Reading these latest posts this morning, I can't believe what is going on.

Again, I can only reiterate my sympathy. I am self-employed with two young kids and I can't even begin to imagine how I'd have the time or patience to sort this out.

This thread has a long way to go....

i was speaking with a pensioner (pension from Fiat) ex-Iveco employee who worked in the spare parts division at the Greek head office, a top executive in his division before he retired.

He does not own a Fiat even though he could probably get a huge discount, he has a VW. =) That says a lot, but my favorite is his joke.

The guy (devil?) who decides who goes to heaven or hell.

What car were you driving sir? Mercedes. Ok you can go to hell.
What car were you driving sir? Fiat. Oh you have suffered enough in your life, straight to heaven for you.

I should have asked him before buying a Fiat! I mean he did work there for like 20 years!

Oh and he's Italian.

 

[zanes]

Jesus christ this is painful to watch.

Coming back to babyferrari 's point, I've been thinking about this, and I think it may be a (much) more widespread issue than we see on here.

One thing that sticks out in the last few weeks especially is that FIAT are desperate to avoid giving out replacement cars at any cost. From dcs1 's experience, this policy has been firmed up recently (odd if an update is nearly ready).

I can only conclude that FIAT (UK or internationally) are worried about the floodgates opening if replacement cars are issued.

Let's say for a minute that "only" 50 cars are affected (still far more than we've had on here). Let's assume that they're all pretty bog standard pops, with a couple of extras- 10 grand retail (keeps the numbers round).

Now, you might say "Ah, but that's half a million quid's worth of car you're writing off by issuing replacements".

Retail price, yes, but FIAT UK won't pay anywhere near that. How much they do pay, I don't know. IIRC at launch dealers were on 6% margin (on a 3% + 3% satisfaction basis), so let's say FIAT UK buy them at 70% retail (so are on a 24% margin after dealer margin- that's very, very narrow )- 7 grand a piece. For a start, I suspect dealers are on (much) more now. Hell, we know 3 grand is an achievable discount. No way you'd ever sell even a pre-reg at "factory door" price.

Anyway, let's run with it. Now we're at £350k.

However, this assumes that the rejected cars go straight into a crusher, which there's no chance of for an issue like this. Maybe they'd get offered to dealers at a big discount as "showroom only" cars or FIAT UK would use them as show cars, after which they'd be stripped for parts (even if you're only pulling the wheels/tyres/interiors you're down to a few grand cost per car). The 500 is old enough that the secondhand parts market must be thriving. Maybe that's not realistic but you would think FIAT UK could find something to use them for.

That would be chump change.

With the update being imminently available the whole "don't issue replacements" policy looks even stranger- if you had any confidence in the update you'd be tripping over yourself to get replacements out to those that have pushed for them (because, as they're showing, these are the people that can cause the brand the most damage) and taking the old cars back. Apply the update to them and flog them on through the approved used channel. Job done, and you're probably losing 2 grand per car, if that. But saving a lot more.

Those that are saddled with this issue have my deepest sympathies. This sort of thing is every car buyer's nightmare.
ab4444, am I right in thinking you've got neither 500 at your use atm? 3 weeks at the dealer is an absolute joke- when I bought mine it didn't even take that long to get from the docks to my driveway (though admittedly that was a cash buy)- and FIAT were selling as many base pandas and 500s on the scrappage as they could get.

 

[ahmett]

Jesus christ this is painful to watch.

Coming back to babyferrari 's point, I've been thinking about this, and I think it may be a (much) more widespread issue than we see on here.

One thing that sticks out in the last few weeks especially is that FIAT are desperate to avoid giving out replacement cars at any cost. From dcs1 's experience, this policy has been firmed up recently (odd if an update is nearly ready).

I can only conclude that FIAT (UK or internationally) are worried about the floodgates opening if replacement cars are issued.

Let's say for a minute that "only" 50 cars are affected (still far more than we've had on here). Let's assume that they're all pretty bog standard pops, with a couple of extras- 10 grand retail (keeps the numbers round).

Now, you might say "Ah, but that's half a million quid's worth of car you're writing off by issuing replacements".

Retail price, yes, but FIAT UK won't pay anywhere near that. How much they do pay, I don't know. IIRC at launch dealers were on 6% margin (on a 3% + 3% satisfaction basis), so let's say FIAT UK buy them at 70% retail (so are on a 24% margin after dealer margin- that's very, very narrow )- 7 grand a piece. For a start, I suspect dealers are on (much) more now. Hell, we know 3 grand is an achievable discount. No way you'd ever sell even a pre-reg at "factory door" price.

Anyway, let's run with it. Now we're at £350k.

However, this assumes that the rejected cars go straight into a crusher, which there's no chance of for an issue like this. Maybe they'd get offered to dealers at a big discount as "showroom only" cars or FIAT UK would use them as show cars, after which they'd be stripped for parts (even if you're only pulling the wheels/tyres/interiors you're down to a few grand cost per car). The 500 is old enough that the secondhand parts market must be thriving. Maybe that's not realistic but you would think FIAT UK could find something to use them for.

That would be chump change.

With the update being imminently available the whole "don't issue replacements" policy looks even stranger- if you had any confidence in the update you'd be tripping over yourself to get replacements out to those that have pushed for them (because, as they're showing, these are the people that can cause the brand the most damage) and taking the old cars back. Apply the update to them and flog them on through the approved used channel. Job done, and you're probably losing 2 grand per car, if that. But saving a lot more.

as you said they are saving face.
they do not want to replace cars and give a notion that these cars are too flawed to fix.
i think fiat have taught us that, before actually paying for the car, one must only give a deposit as small as possible and then test the actual car they are buying before they pay the full amount.
sounds hard to achieve and the dealer will give you hell, but if you persist, its doable.

although i am sure if you try that with BMW, the sellers will be like, why is this guy so untrusworthy? why is he buying a car from us if he doesn't trust us at all, for the actual quality of the car, and the after sales service.
to which you'll reply, i have trust issues after buying a fiat.
to which he'll say, oh, ok we forgive you. welcome to germany my friend, don't let the italians cheat you anymore, like they did to us during WWII = )
haha DONT mention the war!

 

[zanes]

as you said they are saving face.
they do not want to replace cars and give a notion that these cars are too flawed to fix.

But they're really not saving face- if it's only a small number they'd be far better off quietly pulling the cars back from customers and issuing replacements.

Imagine what it'd be like if instead of ab4444 giving us instalment after instalment of "Basil Fawlty sells cars" she'd come on here and said "Yep, FIAT have admitted they're not sure they can fix my car/an update will be months away, so they've said keep it for the time being and they're priority building me a replacement/sourcing an equivalent from stock". Even if they turned round and said "well, it's a few months old now, so rather than a new build we're prepared to give you a pre-reg replacement" it'd be a much better result.

i think fiat have taught us that, before actually paying for the car, one must only give a deposit as small as possible and then test the actual car they are buying before they pay the full amount.
sounds hard to achieve and the dealer will give you hell, but if you persist, its doable.

Agreed, and this is what I advised a few pages back. Probably difficult with a new factory build, but should be very doable with something like a pre-reg.

For comparison, when I bought my Suzuki it was one of a batch of pre-update cars the dealer was shifting at a good discount. New, unregistered, but the last few cars of that specification within the UK network. Unsellable at full price as the new spec ones (sat nav and a few minor bits IIRC) were at dealers.

Originally we went in for a new car for someone else in the family, who was thinking about a standard 1.2 but as it happened with the discount the standard and sport were within a few hundred pounds of each other. On the basis of "we might as well try it while we're here to be sure" we were given the keys to the brand new swift (new enough that during moderate braking you could smell wax), a set of tradeplates and waved off with a "be back before we close". I ended up buying that car...

Absolutely no reason you couldn't be offered that on a pre-reg, and I'd struggle to see why a dealer couldn't offer at least a few miles up and down some local hills on an approve-or-refund basis with a new build (unless it was some really unsellable colour or specification combination, but not sure you can really do that with the 500...). Bear in mind the PDI calls for a road test, and dealers have an odometer reset within a certain number of miles.

although i am sure if you try that with BMW, the sellers will be like, why is this guy so untrusworthy? why is he buying a car from us if he doesn't trust us at all, for the actual quality of the car, and the after sales service.
to which you'll reply, i have trust issues after buying a fiat.

Yes, the "FIAT effect". I've done that a couple of times with Suzuki. They look at me like I'm mad (do I need to top up the courtesy car?)

to which he'll say, oh, ok we forgive you. welcome to germany my friend, don't let the italians cheat you anymore, like they did to us during WWII = )
haha DONT mention the war!

Don't give them your name, whatever you do.

 

[jrkitching]

Jesus christ this is painful to watch.

And it must be even more painful for those poor folks who are still having to deal with Fiat over this issue.

I'm also still waiting for someone, somewhere, to say what actually happened to cause this issue. It's only by disclosing the full facts that us technical folks will ever be properly reassured that latest production cars are free of the fault and that the problem cars have been truly fixed.

Until then, the only recommendation I can offer to anyone contemplating a post 2013 1.2, whether new or used, is to avoid it and buy something else.

 

[zanes]

And it must be even more painful for those poor folks who are still having to deal with Fiat over this issue.

Agreed.

I'm also still waiting for someone, somewhere, to say what actually happened to cause this issue. It's only by disclosing the full facts that us technical folks will ever be properly reassured that latest production cars are free of the fault and that the problem cars have been truly fixed.

We'll never know, I suspect. Unless VOSA force a recall, which is extremely unlikely.

So far what we know and FIAT's response (which has now gone from incompetance to deliberate obfuscation IMHO) don't make sense together- the only way I can make logical sense of it is if this is either much more widespread than any of us thought (even if it was EVERY 500 sold in Europe since the start of 2013 surely pulling them back to dealers for a software update even outside of routine servicing wouldn't be the end of the world), or else it is not economically or otherwise fixable on those afflicted vehicles.

We're not talking about an isolated issue on a car that doesn't sell much. We're talking about an issue that has received prime time TV coverage and is severely denting confidence in the best selling version (and probably all versions) of FIAT's flagship car.

Could it be more than just a software map balls up I wonder?

Until then, the only recommendation I can offer to anyone contemplating a post 2013 1.2, whether new or used, is to avoid it and buy something else.

:yeahthat:

 

[ahmett]

Agreed.



We'll never know, I suspect. Unless VOSA force a recall, which is extremely unlikely.

So far what we know and FIAT's response (which has now gone from incompetance to deliberate obfuscation IMHO) don't make sense together- the only way I can make logical sense of it is if this is either much more widespread than any of us thought (even if it was EVERY 500 sold in Europe since the start of 2013 surely pulling them back to dealers for a software update even outside of routine servicing wouldn't be the end of the world), or else it is not economically or otherwise fixable on those afflicted vehicles.

Could it be more than just a software map balls up I wonder?



:yeahthat:

Fiat are lucky they did not bring the 1.2 to the USA. They would have been sued for millions! There the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) does not play games like they do in VOSA.

Who knows, maybe Fiat bribed VOSA not to recall their cars = )

 

[ab4444]

I have now rung the finance company. They had NO idea that Fiat were mucking me and the dealership about as they were working on the assumption that a Saturday collection was a 'done deal'.


They now understand the reality of the situation.


The finance company now have until midday....tick tock....

 

[zanes]

I have now rung the finance company. They had NO idea that Fiat were mucking me and the dealership about as they were working on the assumption that a Saturday collection was a 'done deal'.


They now understand the reality of the situation.


The finance company now have until midday....tick tock....

I'm sure I've asked this before, but run it past me again- is the finance company FIAT's "in house" finance house? Is it based at FIAT UK head office or external?

This is interesting though as it confirms it is FIAT UK holding things up, rather than the dealer (who, as I posted yesterday, are in the nightmare situation of being stuck in the middle of a (justifiably) unhappy customer and a totally unhelpful supplier) or there being something wrong with the finance arrangements.

I'd love to see that email the dealer sent but understand posting it would be a bad idea.

 

[ahmett]

I'm sure I've asked this before, but run it past me again- is the finance company FIAT's "in house" finance house? Is it based at FIAT UK head office or external?

This is interesting though as it confirms it is FIAT UK holding things up, rather than the dealer (who, as I posted yesterday, are in the nightmare situation of being stuck in the middle of a (justifiably) unhappy customer and a totally unhelpful supplier) or there being something wrong with the finance arrangements.

I'd love to see that email the dealer sent but understand posting it would be a bad idea.

if i was a dealer i'd seriously be scared to represent Fiat now as it would make me look really bad!

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

but if you win the court case then should be ok no? you are refusing payment because they breached the terms of the contract!

Unfortunately not as until you've won in court you're still required to make the payments, you've still defaulted by not doing this.

 

[ab4444]

if i was a dealer i'd seriously be scared to represent Fiat now as it would make me look really bad!

My dealership put in writing to Fiat last night in an email that they are very embarrassed at the way that Fiat are dealing with this situation and they are representing the brand who are behaving very badly.


Yes, the finance went through the Fiat finance company which was FGA Capital and is now FCA Automotives. Commenced last September; I've driven a total of 1700 miles and had a Fiat in my possession for a total of roughly 2.5 months. No courtesy car to speak of (if we ignore the one that Pewsham garage in Chippenham very kindly gave me for 3 days whilst they tried to run diagnostics on my first car).


They have just over 30 minutes remaining....

 

[ahmett]

My dealership put in writing to Fiat last night in an email that they are very embarrassed at the way that Fiat are dealing with this situation and they are representing the brand who are behaving very badly.


Yes, the finance went through the Fiat finance company which was FGA Capital and is now FCA Automotives. Commenced last September; I've driven a total of 1700 miles and had a Fiat in my possession for a total of roughly 2.5 months. No courtesy car to speak of (if we ignore the one that Pewsham garage in Chippenham very kindly gave me for 3 days whilst they tried to run diagnostics on my first car).


They have just over 30 minutes remaining....

so what happens now? = )

 

[ab4444]

so what happens now? = )

At 12.25pm I got a phone call from the dealership to say they had JUST received the authorisation code from Fiat and they were registering the car for collection Saturday.


I insisted that I got an email confirming it from both the finance company and Fiat, which came through roughly 10 minutes later. There was no explanation given about the delay but I was offered a free first service as a gesture of goodwill for the inconvenience caused.


I was literally picking up the phone to my solicitor when all of this came through. They were very lucky. Just goes to show, once again, that when forced to fight your corner and stand up to these big companies and don't just crawl away and be quiet, you get somewhere. But there's never any acknowledgement of the stress and anguish it puts you through.


No-one should EVER have to go through this sort of experience to get something that is being paid for and which the supplier is withholding. Fiat's treatment of me, from start to finish, has been lousy to put it mildly.


However, I will take from this many, many lessons and whilst it has been arduous, upsetting and emotionally draining, it's been a victory. But I won't be buying Fiat ever again.

 

[ahmett]

At 12.25pm I got a phone call from the dealership to say they had JUST received the authorisation code from Fiat and they were registering the car for collection Saturday.


I insisted that I got an email confirming it from both the finance company and Fiat, which came through roughly 10 minutes later. There was no explanation given about the delay but I was offered a free first service as a gesture of goodwill for the inconvenience caused.


I was literally picking up the phone to my solicitor when all of this came through. They were very lucky. Just goes to show, once again, that when forced to fight your corner and stand up to these big companies and don't just crawl away and be quiet, you get somewhere. But there's never any acknowledgement of the stress and anguish it puts you through.


No-one should EVER have to go through this sort of experience to get something that is being paid for and which the supplier is withholding. Fiat's treatment of me, from start to finish, has been lousy to put it mildly.


However, I will take from this many, many lessons and whilst it has been arduous, upsetting and emotionally draining, it's been a victory. But I won't be buying Fiat ever again.


I will post a picture of me and

Congratulations! Make sure the offer of a free service is in writing so they don't cheat you out of that as well.

I hope you enjoy your next few years of driving until you leave fiat.