Technical Ducato 2.8 won't start

[Pop98]

I have been researching Fiat eLearn, for 2.8jtd, and where better written that for the 2.0jtd, both of which use the Bosch EDC 15C7 ECU.

The ECU has to have several conditions satisfied, before injection is allowed. One condition is that fuel pressure is greater than 120 Bar, another is that the hp pressure regulator must be "seen" by the ECU. (The ECU shuts down if electric regulator valve is not detected.)
Without a supply to the hp regulator valve the hp pump output is restricted to 100 Bar.

Relay T9 is described as the main injection relay, so starting cannot take place until it is operated. It is not clear to me whether the ECU inhibits injection via T9, or more directly by internal connections, but either way we need T9, and the hp regulator to be seen by the ECU.

I could have arrived at an incorrect conclusion. Helpful comments are welcome.

 

[Pop98]

There has been mention of a code of U1600..
Is this still active?

Yes it is however the padlock light on dash shows immobiliser is functioning correctly.
Comes on and extinguishes a second later

 

[bugsymike]

Yes it is however the padlock light on dash shows immobiliser is functioning correctly.
Comes on and extinguishes a second later

If that is the case why does it show on the diagnostic report, seems strange, was that report recent?
I assume other spare keys tried?
Also good fully charged battery now?

 

[varesecrazy]

Yes it is however the padlock light on dash shows immobiliser is functioning correctly.
Comes on and extinguishes a second later

For a Modern vehicle I would anticipate a full detail code so a format of
P****—**
The last 2 characters after the DASH giving info on what the error entails, low power to sensor, etc

With a reading of Codes looking a little incomplete,
I would be concerned you have other errors / problems giving your
"non - start" scenario


The 1st error regarding fuel pressure sensor.. If ECU isn't seeing a good pressure it will not permit injection

Obviously any CanBus errors U**** are also a concern

What was the battery state when taking these last readings?

 

[Communicator]

I have been following this thread with interest, but my time is limited due to my good wife struggling with severe post operative pain, the need to work on my own vehicles, and the demands of a large lawn. (The semi resident hare is nibbling away, but is severly over taxed.)

I have previosly suggested that codes P0215 (injection relay), and P0671 (fuel pressure regukator) could be due to a wiring problem. The U1600 code relating to the immobiliser system, and code P0481 (cooling fan relay) seem to be a new additions, and it also could be due to wiring problems., or more seriously there could be symptoms of water leaking into the ECU.

As has been suggested the U1600 errors could be due to low battery voltage affecting digital communication between the code receiver and the ECU. To elaborate, the code receiver interrogates the key, when ignition is switched on. It is the code receiver that controls the key code light. However again when ignition is switched on, the ECU sends a code to the code receiver, and if the key has been recognised, the code is repeated back to the ECU. If problems occur at this stage, it seems possible that the key code light could stay out, as the key has been recognised. I do not know that for certain.

The main injection relay operation is vital for engine operation, and located in the engine bay fusebox, where the fan relay is also housed. At ignition on, the ECU will expect to see 12V via both relay coils.

The fuel pressure regulator is also vital for the control system to function, as main variable quantities are fuel pressure, and injection duration. As stated in a previous post, eLearn for the 2.0jtd states that the ECU will shut down if the regulator cannot be seen by the ECU. It makes sense to extend this inhibition to the 2.8jtd, even though not explicitally mentioned in eLearn. On the 2.8jtd the hp pressure regulator is mounted on the hp pump, which in turn is part of the auxilliary assembly that carries the lubricating oil filter. The connectin to the ECU is direct, and not via the engine bay fusebox.

To summarise there is a collection of possible faults, with common factors being the ECU, and wiring close to it.

I have in recent months read of water getting into the ECU, but I think that was associated with snow blowing into the engine bay.

I also remember reading about damp cable forms adjacent to the ECU, suffering from internal wire corrosion, to the extent of going open circuit. (I thought PVC insulation was waterproof!)

I may be entirely wrong, but my current thinking would be to disconnect the battery, then ECU, and check for continuity and earthing on the relevant wires, perhaps starting with a loop test via the hp regulator coil, so no disconnection needed at the regulator. If the wiring to the hp regulator checks OK, then perhaps the ECU should be removed and tested, or the OP may choose to eliminate this possibility first.

I can post 2.8jtd engine wiring diagrams, and ECU pinout, but would need to know whether or not the engine has EGR option, and type of fuel filter - metal cannister, or UFI plastic bodied.

 

[Pop98]

Ok so this is where I'm up to...
It's still sitting outside my house refusing to go..
I've removed and tested every relay and fuse both under the bonnet and on both sides of the cab at knee height.
Everything appears to be fine I did find a blown fuse next to the bulkhead in the engine bay (see photo)yellow 20 amp second from bottom.
I have no idea what it does/did

 

[varesecrazy]

So, one of those 4 was blown

Are the OBD screenshot yours.. Or from "a visitor"..?

I. E. Does a Scan for errors look any different now?

 

[Pop98]

So, one of those 4 was blown

Are the OBD screenshot yours.. Or from "a visitor"..?

I. E. Does a Scan for errors look any different now?

The scan was completed about a week ago by a local company who wanted the best part of three grand to take it away and repair it.
The engineer (?) who plugged it in told me that the fuel pump in the tank was the most likely cause after plugging in the OBD.
Because I'm now desperate to get it going I just took him at his word and replaced it £150 later it's made no difference at all.
Which is why I'm now very reluctant to let them have it

 

[bugsymike]

The scan was completed about a week ago by a local company who wanted the best part of three grand to take it away and repair it.
The engineer (?) who plugged it in told me that the fuel pump in the tank was the most likely cause after plugging in the OBD.
Because I'm now desperate to get it going I just took him at his word and replaced it £150 later it's made no difference at all.
Which is why I'm now very reluctant to let them have it

Does sound like a license to print money by that local company along with no guarantee the bill ends there!
Is there any Forum member who could plug it in to his MultiEcuScan diagnostics to give us a better idea, or if you feel able to test it yourself if you invested in the tool. Gendan is the company that supplies them and are quite helpful in guiding what you would need to purchase.

 

[varesecrazy]

Does sound like a license to print money by that local company along with no guarantee the bill ends there!
Is there any Forum member who could plug it in to his MultiEcuScan diagnostics to give us a better idea, or if you feel able to test it yourself if you invested in the tool. Gendan is the company that supplies them and are quite helpful in guiding what you would need to purchase.

Not sure there are any on the Register near the wirral / Merseyside..

But some members MIGHT be nearby

 

[Communicator]

Ok so this is where I'm up to...
It's still sitting outside my house refusing to go..
I've removed and tested every relay and fuse both under the bonnet and on both sides of the cab at knee height.
Everything appears to be fine I did find a blown fuse next to the bulkhead in the engine bay (see photo)yellow 20 amp second from bottom.
I have no idea what it does/did

I suggest that the fuses shown may be part of the conversion. 2 x 20A for habitation, and starter batteries, either side of split charge relay. 15A fuse for 12V fridge element, and 10A for ????? If the vehicle does not have the aircon option, then the three black relays shown in the photo could be engine flame starter glow plug relay, split charge relay , and fridge relay. If this is correct the the fuses and relays shown have no bearing on the current problem.

Likewise, the RH Cab fusebox (B101) is only for options such as electric windows and central locking. The LH Cab fuse box (B002) supplies more essential. systems, including lighting other than headlights.

The engine bay fusebox (B001), supplies the engine and some other systems including headlights. This engine bay fusebox has been known to have problems after due to internal corrosion, possibly following a water ingress. I discounted this possibility in my earlier post because the hp pressure regulator is not connected via B001.

I have attached pdf my diagram of the engine bay fusebox for reference.

 

[Pop98]

I suggest that the fuses shown may be part of the conversion. 2 x 20A for habitation, and starter batteries, either side of split charge relay. 15A fuse for 12V fridge element, and 10A for ????? If the vehicle does not have the aircon option, then the three black relays shown in the photo could be engine flame starter glow plug relay, split charge relay , and fridge relay. If this is correct the the fuses and relays shown have no bearing on the current problem.

Likewise, the RH Cab fusebox (B101) is only for options such as electric windows and central locking. The LH Cab fuse box (B002) supplies more essential. systems, including lighting other than headlights.

The engine bay fusebox (B001), supplies the engine and some other systems including headlights. This engine bay fusebox has been known to have problems after due to internal corrosion, possibly following a water ingress. I discounted this possibility in my earlier post because the hp pressure regulator is not connected via B001.

I have attached pdf my diagram of the engine bay fusebox for reference.

This engine fuseboard seems to be in almost pristine condition and has had an extra made to measure waterproof(?) cover fitted. (I assume from new).
I've removed the fuseboard from it's housing and sprayed with liberal amounts of switch cleaner all to no avail.

 

[Pop98]

Does sound like a license to print money by that local company along with no guarantee the bill ends there!
Is there any Forum member who could plug it in to his MultiEcuScan diagnostics to give us a better idea, or if you feel able to test it yourself if you invested in the tool. Gendan is the company that supplies them and are quite helpful in guiding what you would need to purchase.

Unfortunately none of the people on the map (multiEcuScan) answer there messages and almost all of them last posted a year or more ago. Yet another dead end but thanks anyway

 

[jackwhoo]

When you key on van you hear the in tank pump run for a few seconds?

 

[jackwhoo]

Recently someone had a no start ducato because he had inadvertently tripped a crash switch near the battery. I wonder if you have a crash switch?

Older ducato than yours but with mentioning.

Is your battery under bonnet?

 

[Pop98]

When you key on van you hear the in tank pump run for a few seconds?

Yes...there's fuel in the filter but none at the rail (injector's).

Recently someone had a no start ducato because he had inadvertently tripped a crash switch near the battery. I wonder if you have a crash switch?

It does have one but it's not been tripped

 

[Communicator]

@Pop98

As an aid to diagnosis, can you say roughly how long since the last time that the engine was started?

At the moment there seem to be two possible ways forward.

1. Your preferred option, find a competant and willing auto electrician.

2. If you continue to be unsuccessful in you search, bite the bullet, and carry out your own testing with guidance from forum members.

In connection with the above I requested details of fuel filter, and whether EGR option is fitted. I requested this information in post #45, on 18th May. I am not aware of any reply from you.

My current thinking is that either the hp regulator solenoid or the wiring to it is faulty. From the fault codes listed the main injection relay wiring is also suspect. Add in the other fault codes, and there could be (nothing is certain until tested) either a general wiring fault, or an ECU failure.

The ECU can be removed and sent away for testing, but I think that testing the hp regulator would be a good first move no matter who does the testing.

Do you own, and are you able to use an electrical multimeter?

 

[bugsymike]

Any help greatly appreciated Man thanks in advance

I know I keep going back to immobiliser issues and maybe getting the ECU "de immobilsed" disconnected by specialist.
It is just assuming the battery was fully charged when this diagnostic report was read/taken, it seems relevant.
Maybe contact a ECU programing company , give them a copy of that report and see what they advise.
Are you also 100% sure you have a good fully charged battery, as this seems to cast doubt.

 

[Communicator]

I know I keep going back to immobiliser issues and maybe getting the ECU "de immobilsed" disconnected by specialist.
It is just assuming the battery was fully charged when this diagnostic report was read/taken, it seems relevant.
Maybe contact a ECU programing company , give them a copy of that report and see what they advise.
Are you also 100% sure you have a good fully charged battery, as this seems to cast doubt.
View attachment 445602

While I agree that at least some of the codes could be due to too low a battery voltage, they should reset, and that does not explain the failure to start when the battery is fully charged. I would not be too eager to have the immobiliser function deleted from the ECU, before iit is proven to be faulty particularly as the key code recognition appears to be working, as confirmed by an auto locksmith.

This is why I am suggesting a test of the hp regulator and wiring. This will require the ECU to be unplugged, and then a simple loop, and perhaps earth resistance test should point to the next step. With the ECU disconnected, it will also be possible to check the main injection relay (T09) circuit.

 

[bugsymike]

While I agree that at least some of the codes could be due to too low a battery voltage, they should reset, and that does not explain the failure to start when the battery is fully charged. I would not be too eager to have the immobiliser function deleted from the ECU, before iit is proven to be faulty particularly as the key code recognition appears to be working, as confirmed by an auto locksmith.

This is why I am suggesting a test of the hp regulator and wiring. This will require the ECU to be unplugged, and then a simple loop, and perhaps earth resistance test should point to the next step. With the ECU disconnected, it will also be possible to check the main injection relay (T09) circuit.

What you say makes good sense, however I think OP is having problems getting experienced technicians on site where he is located