500 (Classic) Dexter the 1962 Fiat 500D

[IanEmery]

I have run into a bit of a problem.
I was about to order a whole load of parts when I thought I should check the difference between the N/D steering rods and the later ones.
They are the same length however the tapers are different.
The later ones have tapers on the joints from 10mm to 13mm.
The early ones have tapers from 10mm to 11.4mm.


What have I got?
My arms on the steering box and idler arm are 11.4mm original D.
My hubs have been changed at sometime I think because they have the later 13mm holes.


So my options:
1. change my hubs to early ones - might be hard to find and I have refurbished my ones.
2. change the arms on the steering box and idler - does anyone know if they are the same joint on the steering box?
Does anyone have any spare later ones?
3. Can I use the early D arms but just fit the later outer joints?


Any suggestions please?

Sean, There was a thread entitled ‘Kingpin refurb for my 1963 500 D’ where I discussed with Hamilto2 regarding this very subject and a suggestion was made as to possibility of bushing the arm. Might this help?

 

[Franko500]

I think that will be quite involved.
Also not sure how strong it will be.


I am thinking its best to use the D middle bar with small joints.
Then use the D inner joints as these will fit the steering and idler arms.
Then use later outer joints. As long as the tubes are the same they will clamp the 2 arms together.


I tried looking for tapered drills, but can only find reamers.
This could take some time to ream the smaller joints to fit the larger tapers.
I don't think my local machine shop will be open otherwise I could get them to do it.

 

[Franko500]

I won’t be bored for a while.
A whole load of parts arrived today - only took 3 days

 

[fiat500]

I won’t be bored for a while.
A whole load of parts arrived today

I hope you can find the time.

 

[Spike64]

I have run into a bit of a problem.
I was about to order a whole load of parts when I thought I should check the difference between the N/D steering rods and the later ones.
They are the same length however the tapers are different.
The later ones have tapers on the joints from 10mm to 13mm.
The early ones have tapers from 10mm to 11.4mm.


What have I got?
My arms on the steering box and idler arm are 11.4mm original D.
My hubs have been changed at sometime I think because they have the later 13mm holes.



So my options:
1. change my hubs to early ones - might be hard to find and I have refurbished my ones.
2. change the arms on the steering box and idler - does anyone know if they are the same joint on the steering box?

Does anyone have any spare later ones?
3. Can I use the early D arms but just fit the later outer joints?


Any suggestions please?

Hi
Mine may be different again as they don’t have the black rubber dust covers they have like a foam creamy hulla hoop looking thing but wait for it.......... yep it is a N

 

[Spike64]

View attachment 207079View attachment 207080View attachment 207081View attachment 207082View attachment 207083View attachment 207084View attachment 207085

Look who’s back

That’s a cracking job Sean those panel gaps are absolutely perfect :worship::worship:

 

[Franko500]

Hi
Mine may be different again as they don’t have the black rubber dust covers they have like a foam creamy hulla hoop looking thing but wait for it.......... yep it is a N

They should be the same as a D.
I think the original ones had that white cover, but they eventually upgraded to rubber.
I have decided to upgrade my steering box and idler arms to the later type and use the stronger more robust later steering rods and joints.
It may not be original, but I think it will be better.
Its a lot easier than trying to find some original 500D kingpins.

 

[Franko500]

Rear hub rebuild:
My original rear hubs were the late D ones.
These have the 20 spline shafts but the rear housings have a larger diameter seal to the later hubs.
One of the housings had been got at and outer bearing case was loose.
Also the shafts were badly worn - probably due to the damaged hub.
I found some later F/L replacements.
All been blasted and repainted.
Fitted new bearings and seals.

 

[Franko500]

additional images of the difference between early and late models.
Real early models had 6 spline shafts.
From what I understand these were from the earlier Fiat 500 topolino.
They only has 3 bolts holding the flanges on.
They then moved to a 6 spline, 4 bolt version.
Mine has the 20 spline 4 bolt version which are replaced for a whopping 200 euros
Happily mine appear to be okay.
The flexi joints are a smaller diameter on the early models and the space in the arms are also smaller than late ones.
The later flexi joints are larger and have a security tab fitted to prevent the joint from falling apart in the event of failure and stopping the driveshaft from causing major damage.
These safety tabs don't fit the early ones.
The early shafts were fitted with smaller castle nuts, although the later larger ones do fit but that might be because I have new joints.
Later models went over to the larger nut which was secured by being peened over.

 

[Franko500]

Old and new!


One thing I found out after I built my rear hub and brakes together was that the D bearing housing goes on first, then the brake back plate.
Unlike the L where the back plate goes on first.
I soon found this out as my brake drum wouldn't fit on!
They probably decided to change it as it keeps the parts enclosed and reduces dirt and corrosion.

 

[Bigvtwin996]

Another solution to the coupling problem.....
you take a BIG hammer and beat the wishbones....
done correctly you can open them up so the larger couplings and outer shafts fit.

This does seem to be a popular cost saving modification...

 

[Franko500]

After getting some new parts delivered including the other 2 coil spring rubber rings, I finally got to fit the right hand rear suspension.
All was going great until I came to fit the handbrake cable. It didn't matter what I did the cable was not going to fit. It was just too short.
I left it until this morning and looked at a few old photos.
It turns out that I had assembled the hubs incorrectly.
When I first put them together I couldn't get the drum on properly. I thought it was because I had put the disc plate on first and then the hub.
As it turns out I had put the hub on the wrong way.
The correct order is the back plate then the hub, but the longer section goes into the swinging arm and the short section stick out into the drum side.
This reduced the distance from the cable mount on the swinging arm by 10mm per side.
Once both sides were rebuilt again I still couldn't get the cable to fit.
I ended up undoing the connectors to the brake lever arms and then pulling the handbrake forward enough to get the bolts in. Then I could just about pull the cable and push the levers forward enough to get the cable back on.
Its very tight. With everything at its minimum adjustment the hubs just about turn by hand. If I pull the brake lever with all my might I just get 3 clicks.
So im leaving the brake lever pulled up for a few days in hope it might stretch slightly.









​

 

[Franko500]

My front brakes caused me some issues as well.
When I came to fit the bearings in the front drums I had a problem with the seal. It was too small.
Turns out I have the earlier N/D series 1 drums and the front seal is 45mm outside diameter instead of 43mm.

 

[the hobbler]

My handbrake is adjusted for 3 clicks---on a 500L. The less clicks that you can get away with (I do accept 3 is the minimum), the better brake pedal you can have as the rear springs can't pull the shoes too far back off the drum

 

[Spike64]

My front brakes caused me some issues as well.
When I came to fit the bearings in the front drums I had a problem with the seal. It was too small.
Turns out I have the earlier N/D series 1 drums and the front seal is 45mm outside diameter instead of 43mm.

I’m sure i would of been have these problems but hopefully after reading this I should be ok . Your a top bloke Sean cheers mate :slayer::worship:

 

[fiat500]

My handbrake is adjusted for 3 clicks---on a 500L. The less clicks that you can get away with (I do accept 3 is the minimum), the better brake pedal you can have as the rear springs can't pull the shoes too far back off the drum

That might work on cars which have a ratchet-type self-adjuster in the handbrake mechanism but if you rely on that method on the 500 at least one of the brake shoes will be constantly catching on the drum. I think the actuating levers are meant to be "floating" in the backplate and in operation, one shoe is pushed against the drum before the other is then levered into contact. If the self-adjusters are working properly it shouldn't be necessary to force them in this way and the handbrake benefits from the same self-adjusting as the footbrake.....over 30,000 miles on the same rear brake-shoes with only one handbrake adjustment required so far.

 

[the hobbler]

Maybe I have just been lucky Peter---but at '3 clicks' both my rear wheels spin Ok and I have never had a brake-shoe wear problem. But, each to what he is comfortable with.

 

[fiat500]

Maybe I have just been lucky Peter---but at '3 clicks' both my rear wheels spin Ok and I have never had a brake-shoe wear problem. But, each to what he is comfortable with.

Your click count sounds good Tom ......same as my own. That proves that what you first said is right; I don't know why Fiat even bothered with those brake adjusters.

 

[Franko500]

A milestone for me today.
Engine and gearbox firmly in place.
Now to get all those little things done before getting ready for the next phase.
The first start of the engine[emoji3][emoji106]

 

[Spike64]

View attachment 209560View attachment 209561View attachment 209562View attachment 209563View attachment 209564View attachment 209565View attachment 209566

A milestone for me today.
Engine and gearbox firmly in place.
Now to get all those little things done before getting ready for the next phase.
The first start of the engine[emoji3][emoji106]

Very impressive Sean :worship: