Hi everyone, I cannot change gear on my Stilo, as the clutch does not seem to disengauge properly, I have tried to bleed the clutch, followin advice on the forum, but what looks like a bleed nipple is a solid fittng and the only way I can get fluid out of it is by relesing the hydraulic pipe which then allows fluid of of the nipple but I cannot be sure if all the air is out. Does anyone know how the bleed the clutch?
General clutch not working!
- Thread starter alfred
- Start date
Currently reading:
General clutch not working!
you cant bleed it by removing the hose, that will make it worse. you loosen the bleed nipple, stick a bleed kit on, and then pump the clutch while making sure the brake fluid doesnt drop below min. trust me there is a bleed nipple you can loosen.
Last edited:
how to bleed a stilo clutch in the guides section we dont do it that way ..
https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo-guides/86395-bleeding-1-6-clutch-slave-cylinder.html
that is by far the stupidest bleeding method i've ever seen. personally i doubt that guide is correct, it may work to get a bubble out the supply line, but it cant be the correct method. gravity cant bleed trapped air out of the cylinder, air travels up so it would only bleed the fluid out not the air!!
Last edited:
apparently not. the way it works is that when you pull the hose off a tiny bit it allows fluid to pass through the bleed nipple. i can only assume they use voodoo magic to make it work.
:worship: pmsl
First of all, as jug says, that is one stuipd method of bleeding, i used to be a brake specialist and i know PLENTY about bleeding and gravity alone could never work or there would just be one way valves at the top of every fluid based system. That method couldnt do much apart from make things worse or remove the smallest bubbles that you wouldnt have noticed anyway!
My recommendation is speak to your local dealer and get advice on your model.
lol,
@ voodoo
the clutch and brakes use the same resivour (cant spell)
just bleed the lot from one off or all the brake calipers, that way you know you done the lot, then top up fresh, might as well drain it propperly, then if that doesnt work and its still the same, suspect slave cylinder dead, thrust bearing, or master cylinder
when my pedal went straight to the floor (low pressure) it was a crack in the master cyinder. had to pump the brake pedal to get pressure in the clutch, most annoying for the cars behind me seeing flashing brake lights every time i stopped. good work out though, got a strong right leg now
just bleed the lot from one off or all the brake calipers, that way you know you done the lot, then top up fresh, might as well drain it propperly, then if that doesnt work and its still the same, suspect slave cylinder dead, thrust bearing, or master cylinder
when my pedal went straight to the floor (low pressure) it was a crack in the master cyinder. had to pump the brake pedal to get pressure in the clutch, most annoying for the cars behind me seeing flashing brake lights every time i stopped. good work out though, got a strong right leg now
You don't need to add any more pressure than gravity when bleeding air from the clutch system on Stilo. By pushing on the clutch pedal you just ADD to gravity, nothing magical there. Self bleeding kits do exactly the same, just add to gravity and save you having to retop the fluid
The Stilo clutch system is 1ft long straight down so you don't need to add any pressure to it or you'll just end up the loads of fluid everywhere. Got a vertical tube full of fluid? Open the bottom and what happens? Fluid pours out. That's all you need for the 1.6 Stilo clutch system.
Different for bleeding a whole brake system as air gets trapped in pockets but for just bleeding the small amount of air trapped in the slave cylinder then just follow the guide.
Once only fluid coming out then there's no more air and you've bled the clutch
Is the slave cylinder working properly i.e. is the slave cylinder piston moving properly when the clutch is depressed?
The Stilo clutch system is 1ft long straight down so you don't need to add any pressure to it or you'll just end up the loads of fluid everywhere. Got a vertical tube full of fluid? Open the bottom and what happens? Fluid pours out. That's all you need for the 1.6 Stilo clutch system.
Different for bleeding a whole brake system as air gets trapped in pockets but for just bleeding the small amount of air trapped in the slave cylinder then just follow the guide.
Once only fluid coming out then there's no more air and you've bled the clutch
Is the slave cylinder working properly i.e. is the slave cylinder piston moving properly when the clutch is depressed?
Last edited:
I've had the same problems trying to bleed my JTD with the concentric slave cylinder inside the bell housing. The bleed nipple is moulded into a plastic pipe that passes through the bell housing and it cant be unscrewed. eLearn instructions are to remove the circlip holding the hydraulic hose into the bell housing, pull the hose out by no more than 10mm and let gravity do the work. If I were to pump the pedal at this stage, the pipe would fly out and spray brake/clutch fluid everywhere.
I suspect this is would be OK to bleed the clutch master cylinder and the pipes from resevoir to master cylinder and master cylinder to bell housing, but I can't see how it would bleed the slave cylinder and the pipe from it to the bell housing.
Unless Fiat have fitted an 'anti-gravity generator' :idea: inside the bell housing, I'd go along with Voodoo magic as jug says.
Dave.
I suspect this is would be OK to bleed the clutch master cylinder and the pipes from resevoir to master cylinder and master cylinder to bell housing, but I can't see how it would bleed the slave cylinder and the pipe from it to the bell housing.
Unless Fiat have fitted an 'anti-gravity generator' :idea: inside the bell housing, I'd go along with Voodoo magic
as jug says.Dave.
Last edited:
You don't need to add any more pressure than gravity when bleeding air from the clutch system on Stilo. By pushing on the clutch pedal you just ADD to gravity, nothing magical there. Self bleeding kits do exactly the same, just add to gravity and save you having to retop the fluid
The Stilo clutch system is 1ft long and straight down so you don't need to add any pressure to it or you'll just end up the loads of fluid everywhere. Got a vertical tube full of fluid? Open the bottom and what happens? Fluid pours out. That's all you need for the 1.6 Stilo clutch system.
Different for bleeding a whole brake system as air gets trapped in pockets but for just bleeding the small amount of air trapped in the slave cylinder then just follow the guide.
Once only fluid coming out then there's no more air and you've bled the clutch
Is the slave cylinder working properly i.e. is the slave cylinder piston moving properly when the clutch is depressed?
Thats wot i thought? And exactly how my fiat garage did mine when i had trapped air, and coz they let me watch they told about the clutch fluid and brake fluid bein on the same system. Found out lots.
How is it only 1ft long? on a RHD car the fluid has to travel from the resevoir on the n/s of the car to the master cylinder on the o/s of the car then back and down to the slave cylinder on the n/s of the car. On mine there is also about another 4ft of pipe coiled into a spiral, presumably as a damper. Seems to me there's lots of places in the system where air pockets could remain.
Dave.
Last edited:
Remember the guide is for bleeding a 1.6 engine clutch system
It's around one foot from the top of the fluid in the master cylinder to the bleed point. Thats how pressure is created (head x density) and that's more than enough head of pressure to push the fluid through the very short system
It's a 2 minute job if you don't mess with things you don't need
It's around one foot from the top of the fluid in the master cylinder to the bleed point. Thats how pressure is created (head x density) and that's more than enough head of pressure to push the fluid through the very short system
It's a 2 minute job if you don't mess with things you don't need
Last edited:
Yeah... I see what you mean now Decks. The overall fall is only about 1ft.
If this fall was a vertical tube and you opened it at the bottom then fluid would pour out but it's not vertical and it's not very short.
On mine, it traverses from one side of the car and back again and around the spiral damper. There are several places where small pockets of air could accumulate and would not percolate out without being forced. Overall I think there's about 12ft of pipe, (longer than some brake caliper pipe runs) and I suspect it's similar on the 1.6 to my JTD. (the bleeding instructions are similar).
I think my problem is similar to the OPs but I have trouble engaging gear when stationary. I have to really push the clutch pedal into the carpet for it to engage. Probably bled about half a litre of fluid through it now by gravity but still the same. I've just bought the plastic parts that attach the master cylinder push rod to the pedal and I'm going to try to make something to extend the push rod. I feel it only needs a very small amount of extra travel for it to engage properly.
Dave.
I think you'll find extending the push rod won't do anything if you think about it. The slave cylinder has a certain amount of "throw" or movement and you can't extend it. It will just push back the slave cylinder piston further and you're back to square one
Easy ones first
1 Make sure the clutch pedal is actually getting fully up. Mine wasn't and each time you use it the bite point goes lower and lower until it becomes difficult to engage gears and reverse gear crunches. It needs to get fully up before it gets a full charge of fluid and you then get a full stroke from the master cylinder.
The over foot panel got in the way on mine and restricted the clutch pedal movement so i took it off and threw it away
See where it's rubbing here? That caused me a lot of grief in the early days
2 Make sure your carpet isn't preventing the pedal getting fully down
Stilo clutches are wildly different between engines. Some diesels have an external slave cylinder and some are internal. So with an external slave it's easier to see and measure the movement but that's not possible with an internal slave or operating cylinder i think they call it
Easy ones first
1 Make sure the clutch pedal is actually getting fully up. Mine wasn't and each time you use it the bite point goes lower and lower until it becomes difficult to engage gears and reverse gear crunches. It needs to get fully up before it gets a full charge of fluid and you then get a full stroke from the master cylinder.
The over foot panel got in the way on mine and restricted the clutch pedal movement so i took it off and threw it away
See where it's rubbing here? That caused me a lot of grief in the early days
2 Make sure your carpet isn't preventing the pedal getting fully down
Stilo clutches are wildly different between engines. Some diesels have an external slave cylinder and some are internal. So with an external slave it's easier to see and measure the movement but that's not possible with an internal slave or operating cylinder i think they call it
Last edited:
Thanks Decks. I understand what you say about the slave cylinder throw, I'm just clutching (pun ) at straws now. I'm hopping that the slave cylinder isn't operating to it's full extent (maybe because it has air in that I can't bleed out) and by getting a little bit more travel on the master cylinder I may be able to get the concentric slave cylinder to extend a bit more.
The clutch pedal is coming up fully and resting on it's stop (the clutch pedal switch).
I discarded the panel a while ago when the brake switch needed adjusting every few days. There seems to be quite a lot of play in the clutch pedal and I've tried tapping the master cylinder a few times thinking the piston may not be fully retracting but it's resting on a circlip inside the cylinder so can't retract any further. Hence the idea of trying to extend the push rod.
On the face of it, it would appear that the carpet is the problem. If I press the clutch pedal 'normaly' I can't engage a gear, If I force the pedal down into the carpet I can just about get one, and there is a large indentation worn into the carpet where I and the previous owner have been doing this. The answer would possibly be to cut a slot in the carpet which I don't really want to do.
It would certainly be a lot easier with an external slave cylinder, then I could just try the old trick of putting a dome-nut between the piston and push rod to get a bit of extra travel.
Dave.
) at straws now. I'm hopping that the slave cylinder isn't operating to it's full extent (maybe because it has air in that I can't bleed out) and by getting a little bit more travel on the master cylinder I may be able to get the concentric slave cylinder to extend a bit more.The clutch pedal is coming up fully and resting on it's stop (the clutch pedal switch).
I discarded the panel a while ago when the brake switch needed adjusting every few days. There seems to be quite a lot of play in the clutch pedal and I've tried tapping the master cylinder a few times thinking the piston may not be fully retracting but it's resting on a circlip inside the cylinder so can't retract any further. Hence the idea of trying to extend the push rod.
On the face of it, it would appear that the carpet is the problem. If I press the clutch pedal 'normaly' I can't engage a gear, If I force the pedal down into the carpet I can just about get one, and there is a large indentation worn into the carpet where I and the previous owner have been doing this. The answer would possibly be to cut a slot in the carpet which I don't really want to do.
It would certainly be a lot easier with an external slave cylinder, then I could just try the old trick of putting a dome-nut between the piston and push rod to get a bit of extra travel.
Dave.
A car where you have to put the clutch absolutely to the floor every time you change gear is a real pain and is enough to give anyone back ache. It's such a difference and a real pleasure to drive if the bite is somewhere near the middle of travel
Thing is that Stilo clutches are different in design for so many models so it's difficult to generalise but all hydraulic operated clutch systems are non adjustable. It's understandable you'd think that putting a spacer in at the slave cylinder would make the travel further but it doesn't. As soon as you release the clutch then the slave cylinder piston is pushed back to where it was originally MINUS the spacer length and then you're back to the same length of travel as you had in the first place. It doesn't make the range of movement any larger.
It's getting a greater range of travel that you're after, so unless your slave cylinder has bottomed out and reached the end of its travel ( and you'd feel that by the pedal going solid) then a spacer wont do anything
So yes bleeding the system and new fluid are first point of call
Then, wear in the pivot points at the master cylinder or clutch actuating arm at the slave cylinder end will cause lack of movement
Wear in the slave cylinder or master cylinder seals cause problems but this would be noticeable by the clutch slowly engaging on its own
If you pump the clutch does it get better then?
I know you have checked but really make sure the clutch pedal is getting to the fully up position, the last few mm make all the difference
There's also the possibility of an actual clutch problem in not disengaging
Do a search as i remember someone else had a lack of clutch range of movement on a Stilo diesel
Thing is that Stilo clutches are different in design for so many models so it's difficult to generalise but all hydraulic operated clutch systems are non adjustable. It's understandable you'd think that putting a spacer in at the slave cylinder would make the travel further but it doesn't. As soon as you release the clutch then the slave cylinder piston is pushed back to where it was originally MINUS the spacer length and then you're back to the same length of travel as you had in the first place. It doesn't make the range of movement any larger.
It's getting a greater range of travel that you're after, so unless your slave cylinder has bottomed out and reached the end of its travel ( and you'd feel that by the pedal going solid) then a spacer wont do anything
So yes bleeding the system and new fluid are first point of call
Then, wear in the pivot points at the master cylinder or clutch actuating arm at the slave cylinder end will cause lack of movement
Wear in the slave cylinder or master cylinder seals cause problems but this would be noticeable by the clutch slowly engaging on its own
If you pump the clutch does it get better then?
I know you have checked but really make sure the clutch pedal is getting to the fully up position, the last few mm make all the difference
There's also the possibility of an actual clutch problem in not disengaging
Do a search as i remember someone else had a lack of clutch range of movement on a Stilo diesel
Last edited:
I would have thought that all hydraulic clutch systems are self adjusting. There needs to be a means of compensating for wear on the clutch disc the same as with a cable operated clutch that has either manual or automatic adjustment.
In my case, the idea of putting a spacer on the master cylinder push rod is to eliminate some of the exccessive free play at the pedal. I'm guessing (hopping) that the extra travel of the master cylinder piston will pump a greater volume of fluid to the slave cylinder thus increasing it's travel. I've successfully used this method in the past when replacing clutches on (showing my age now) old BMC transverse engine cars. We often used to put a dome-nut on the slave cylinder push rod. I still recall going to the local bicycle shop to get a supply of them.
There's no wear in the pivot points at the master cylinder. As already mentioned, my main concern is the exccessive free play at the pedal. Pressing the pedal from it's rest position is having no effect on the hydraulics for the first few centimeters of travel. The pedal is getting to it's fully up position and resting on the clutch pedal switch. The switch is similar to the bake pedal switch so I can lift the pedal higher against the switch ratchet but that would only aggravate the problem by increasing the free play.
There are no pivot points with the concentric slave cylinder. The cylinder is bolted inside the gearbox and fits around the gearbox input shaft sleeve so the cylinder operates directly on the clutch release diaphragm (picture below).
When I bought the car 2 months ago, pumping the pedal worked, I bought the car thinking it just needed bleeding, but now it makes no difference.
If my spacer in the master cylinder idea doesn't work, then I'm going to have to look at the clutch itself. The car has done 80,000 miles and has never had a new one. I actually bought a new clutch from Fiat a few weeks ago but was hopping to keep it as a spare for when I go to Greece for the summer next year and fit it there. According to eLearn, the engine has to come out to fit a clutch and I don't have the facilities to do that here. I know the people in the Fiat garage where I go in Greece and would be able to do it in their workshop.
I tried a search of the forum but as the search function on the site only searches for individual words and not text strings it comes up with thousands of unrelated pages with the word 'clutch' in.
Thanks for your input so far Decks.
Dave.
In my case, the idea of putting a spacer on the master cylinder push rod is to eliminate some of the exccessive free play at the pedal. I'm guessing (hopping) that the extra travel of the master cylinder piston will pump a greater volume of fluid to the slave cylinder thus increasing it's travel. I've successfully used this method in the past when replacing clutches on (showing my age now) old BMC transverse engine cars. We often used to put a dome-nut on the slave cylinder push rod. I still recall going to the local bicycle shop to get a supply of them.
There's no wear in the pivot points at the master cylinder. As already mentioned, my main concern is the exccessive free play at the pedal. Pressing the pedal from it's rest position is having no effect on the hydraulics for the first few centimeters of travel. The pedal is getting to it's fully up position and resting on the clutch pedal switch. The switch is similar to the bake pedal switch so I can lift the pedal higher against the switch ratchet but that would only aggravate the problem by increasing the free play.
There are no pivot points with the concentric slave cylinder. The cylinder is bolted inside the gearbox and fits around the gearbox input shaft sleeve so the cylinder operates directly on the clutch release diaphragm (picture below).
When I bought the car 2 months ago, pumping the pedal worked, I bought the car thinking it just needed bleeding, but now it makes no difference.
If my spacer in the master cylinder idea doesn't work, then I'm going to have to look at the clutch itself. The car has done 80,000 miles and has never had a new one. I actually bought a new clutch from Fiat a few weeks ago but was hopping to keep it as a spare for when I go to Greece for the summer next year and fit it there. According to eLearn, the engine has to come out to fit a clutch and I don't have the facilities to do that here. I know the people in the Fiat garage where I go in Greece and would be able to do it in their workshop.
I tried a search of the forum but as the search function on the site only searches for individual words and not text strings it comes up with thousands of unrelated pages with the word 'clutch' in.
Thanks for your input so far Decks.
Dave.
Attachments
I would have thought that all hydraulic clutch systems are self adjusting. There needs to be a means of compensating for wear on the clutch disc the same as with a cable operated clutch that has either manual or automatic adjustment.
Yes all hydraulic clutch systems are self adjusting (or should be), they are just not manually "adjustable". Self adjusting cable operated clutches often don't self adjust properly and can be altered manually with some persuasion and interference
In my case, the idea of putting a spacer on the master cylinder push rod is to eliminate some of the exccessive free play at the pedal.
Yes getting rid of free play at the master cylinder end means more stroke and increasing the range of movement
I'm guessing (hopping) that the extra travel of the master cylinder piston will pump a greater volume of fluid to the slave cylinder thus increasing it's travel.
Yes that's right, greater volume of fluid moved means longer movement at the slave cylinder end
I've successfully used this method in the past when replacing clutches on (showing my age now) old BMC transverse engines. We often used to put a dome-nut on the slave cylinder push rod. I still recall going to the local bicycle shop to get a supply of them.
No, what you were doing there didn't increase the range of movement, it just moved it. What happened on old BMC engines was the slave cylinder got to the end of its stroke and STILL it wouldn't be enough to disconnect the clutch properly with wear in all the other moving parts so by putting in a spacer there you moved the range, you didn't increase it, just moved it. The range of movement was always fine, it was just in the wrong place.
Your slave cylinder hasn't reached the end of its travel or "bottomed out", if it did your clutch pedal would go rock hard before it reached the carpet
Working on the master cylinder end and eliminating free play there WILL increase the stroke and therefore longer movement at the slave
When I bought the car 2 months ago, pumping the pedal worked, I bought the car thinking it just needed bleeding, but now it makes no difference.
If it pumps up then it's a hydraulic fault, if it makes no difference then it'll be more mechanical
I think you're on the right track, look for loss of movement at the master cylinder end, maybe a worn pedal pivot?
Yes all hydraulic clutch systems are self adjusting (or should be), they are just not manually "adjustable". Self adjusting cable operated clutches often don't self adjust properly and can be altered manually with some persuasion and interference
In my case, the idea of putting a spacer on the master cylinder push rod is to eliminate some of the exccessive free play at the pedal.
Yes getting rid of free play at the master cylinder end means more stroke and increasing the range of movement
I'm guessing (hopping) that the extra travel of the master cylinder piston will pump a greater volume of fluid to the slave cylinder thus increasing it's travel.
Yes that's right, greater volume of fluid moved means longer movement at the slave cylinder end
I've successfully used this method in the past when replacing clutches on (showing my age now) old BMC transverse engines. We often used to put a dome-nut on the slave cylinder push rod. I still recall going to the local bicycle shop to get a supply of them.
No, what you were doing there didn't increase the range of movement, it just moved it. What happened on old BMC engines was the slave cylinder got to the end of its stroke and STILL it wouldn't be enough to disconnect the clutch properly with wear in all the other moving parts so by putting in a spacer there you moved the range, you didn't increase it, just moved it. The range of movement was always fine, it was just in the wrong place.
Your slave cylinder hasn't reached the end of its travel or "bottomed out", if it did your clutch pedal would go rock hard before it reached the carpet
Working on the master cylinder end and eliminating free play there WILL increase the stroke and therefore longer movement at the slave
When I bought the car 2 months ago, pumping the pedal worked, I bought the car thinking it just needed bleeding, but now it makes no difference.
If it pumps up then it's a hydraulic fault, if it makes no difference then it'll be more mechanical
I think you're on the right track, look for loss of movement at the master cylinder end, maybe a worn pedal pivot?
Last edited:
