General Bye Bye 500 hello Fiesta

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General Bye Bye 500 hello Fiesta

By the way, when the revised fuel consumption test procedure is introduced in a couple of years, to include starts with cold engines from freezing instead of 20 degrees, and more realistic stop-start city driving, plus high speed driving, the figures for all manufacturers will be very interesting to see. At the moment all the tests are carried out at temperatures of 20 degrees + and high speed is considered to be 70 mph, and all tests are conducted on warmed engines with special lubricants :eek:

That's what EU6 is partly about, hence the proliferation of engines with integrated exhaust manifolds in the head, to harness the heat from the exhaust to get the coolant up to temperature more quickly.
 
I know. And it will be really interesting to see what the 'closer to reality' fuel consumption of cars will be like.

I'm expecting a lot of very revised powertrains to be introduced in the next couple of years.
 
The ecoboost has the same issues as the twin air in respect of the mpg, it wants to be driven. I also see the fezzes as a size above
 
Not in the slightest. Whilst it's clever, it hasn't got Multi Air. The EU6 Twin Air adds the three features that the Ecoboost has over the the EU5 TA:

Flow controlled oil pump
Electronically controlled thermostat
Exhaust manifold cast within the head, to promote much faster coolant warm up.

The EU6 TA is an engine in a higher state of technological advancement. The Ecoboost is supplied in a higher tune, but the TA has more in reserve, for sure.

Ecoboost engine is very refined compared to TA. I'm not slating the TA, I love mine but the ford unit mechanical refinement is amazing for 3 cyl.
 
With the standard TD02 turbo on the 85PS engine, you're going to struggle above 100hp or so, as there simply isn't the capability for flow from the turbo. But the 105 has been remapped to 120+.[/QUOTE]

Who's doing (good) remaps on TA?
 
I've only seen Celtic tuning list them, my theory is a panel filter, remap and sports cat should see 100 bhp, if you can do something with the stock turbo then I guess the 120 figure should be possible as indicated above.
 
Ecoboost engine is very refined compared to TA. I'm not slating the TA, I love mine but the ford unit mechanical refinement is amazing for 3 cyl.

A firing impulse every 120 degrees of crank rotation instead of every 360 makes quite a difference to how the engine feels. It's quite clever in that the flywheel is unbalanced, removing the parasitic drag of a balance shaft (as the twin air engine has).
 
Possibly a bit unfair to compare a 500 and Panda against a Fiesta on size given they compete in different classes. As with the OP, I would compare the Fiesta with a Punto. Ford's 500/Panda is the KA, built by Fiat incidently.

I don't mind Fords. I don't think they're as good as their popularity suggests, and their dealer service seems as patchy as Fiat's from family experience, but there are a lot more dealers to choose from and less far to travel to a good one than for Fiat.

They handle well, are reasonably styled (more interesting than VW & Vauxhall, at least) seem pretty reliable and are largely well built, but out of materials which are only decent in the most obvious areas - the rear door cards on my Auntie's 59 plate Fiesta Titanium would rival a Walls Ice Cream tub for quality. Fiat might not have amazing quality materials, but they're a lot more consistent throughout a car - they don't mislead us with squishy dashboards and save a load of cr*p for the back of the car.

I know the Ecoboost is meant to be a good engine, but Fiat tend to have better engines overall. If Ford were that good at engines they wouldn't use Fiat 1.2 and Multijet engines in the KA and they wouldn't use Peugeot-Citroen HDI diesels in most of their other models.

So yeah, not a bad choice of car - all those thousands of buyers can't be wrong and i'd sooner have a Fiesta than a Polo or God awful Corsa, though I think you could get a heavier discount on a Punto than on the Fiesta which would offset the slightly poorer p/x allowance on the 500 from Fiat. I'm not sure whether the Puntos admittedly poor residual values would be any worse than the over-supplied Fiesta, either, but overall a Fiesta is possibly a lower risk car than a Punto over the long term.
 
I would have thought its easier for ford to have the 500 engines in the ka than to try and shoehorn one of there engines in, realistically they only have the 1.25 engine to put in. Engine wise yes they use the 1.6 diesel but the rest of the engines they build themselves, and don't forget they build some of the engines for jaguar and landrover. Ford have built some very good engines over the years (so have fiat)
 
3cyl ecoboost 125 is an absolute gem of an engine.
Sounds amazing and refinement is better than 4 cyl models. Has to driven to be believed.
 
Possibly a bit unfair to compare a 500 and Panda against a Fiesta on size given they compete in different classes. As with the OP, I would compare the Fiesta with a Punto. Ford's 500/Panda is the KA, built by Fiat incidently.

I don't mind Fords. I don't think they're as good as their popularity suggests, and their dealer service seems as patchy as Fiat's from family experience, but there are a lot more dealers to choose from and less far to travel to a good one than for Fiat.

They handle well, are reasonably styled (more interesting than VW & Vauxhall, at least) seem pretty reliable and are largely well built, but out of materials which are only decent in the most obvious areas - the rear door cards on my Auntie's 59 plate Fiesta Titanium would rival a Walls Ice Cream tub for quality. Fiat might not have amazing quality materials, but they're a lot more consistent throughout a car - they don't mislead us with squishy dashboards and save a load of cr*p for the back of the car.

I know the Ecoboost is meant to be a good engine, but Fiat tend to have better engines overall. If Ford were that good at engines they wouldn't use Fiat 1.2 and Multijet engines in the KA and they wouldn't use Peugeot-Citroen HDI diesels in most of their other models.

So yeah, not a bad choice of car - all those thousands of buyers can't be wrong and i'd sooner have a Fiesta than a Polo or God awful Corsa, though I think you could get a heavier discount on a Punto than on the Fiesta which would offset the slightly poorer p/x allowance on the 500 from Fiat. I'm not sure whether the Puntos admittedly poor residual values would be any worse than the over-supplied Fiesta, either, but overall a Fiesta is possibly a lower risk car than a Punto over the long term.
Yes I think engines are the strong point of Fiat and you know funnily enough even if you look at Ferrari in Formula 1 before this stupid communist engine development freeze, Ferrari always had one of the most powerful units in the business.
 
I have been running Fiestas as a driving school car for two and a half years now. And I much prefer driving my 06 Panda 1.2.

The Fiesta 1.4 Zetec, contrary to press hype was not to me a good handling car. It gripped well, never letting go, but body control was poor. Over bumps and around corners it flopped and wobbled which was very wearing when trying to live with it daily. The Corsa in comparison was nicely controlled. Tyres made a difference. Most came with Hankook, which while never letting go, always felt a bit strange, like they were about to let go. Directional control was also a bit vague at first turn-in. On Continentals you can feel the grip and the turn-in is crisp, much better, but the wayward body was still there. Four Fiesta 1.4s, 63k miles, average 42mpg training learners.

I've now got a Fiesta 1.0 ecoboost 125. 5 weeks and 1600 miles and I'm getting 42mpg training learners. So no difference in economy. "Normal" driving may show an improvement, but my own individual journeys suggest not. This latest car is also a Titanium, with bigger wheels and tyres and I understand that Ford have worked on the suspension. With the bigger tyres, grip is actually less. It loses grip where the previous car did not on bumpy bends, suggesting it needs smaller tyres to increase the footprint pressure, or the suspension is now too stiff, although it does not feel stiffer. Body control is a little better, but still irritating.
The ecoboost 125 engine is trying to be a racer, while being marketed as an economy feature. There is a changeup light, but if you change up when it illuminates it drops it off the bottom of the power curve. Accelerating hard, it makes a glorious noise, as all 3-cyl engines will, and pulls very hard indeed. Overtaking is the only thing that will put a real smile on your face. The resultant fuel consumption will wipe it off again. You don't get something for nothing. When accelerating hard, the 1.4 could be made to read as low as 13mpg on the instantaneous fuel consumption readout. The 1.0 will drop to 7mpg!
To try to regain some economy, it is overgeared. Minimum speed in 3rd gear is 28mph, in 4th is 38mph. 5th cannot be used comfortably at 50mph, requiring 55mph or more to be comfortable. The effect is that you are always in at least one gear lower than expected, using more fuel. Like the VW Golf and Polo E models and the Maestro E and HLE of the eighties, unless you lived in a flat area, they were less economical than standard models. Car makers have short memories. More recently, the first of the current Corsas were overgeared to compensate for the bigger body, gear ratios were changed within months of launch as they were undriveable.
The highly strung nature of the 1.0 ecoboost 125 makes it harder work to drive. I have driven a Focus with the 100hp and this is sweeter.

As for well made, it is only skin deep. My Panda does not pretend to be high class, but does it job very well with no pretence. The Fiesta tries to be posher, but underneath it is not special. For the job it does, it does it well, but I wouldn't buy one for myself. If it is transport you want, it will do the job. If you want to enjoy your driving, it may disappoint.
 
Possibly a bit unfair to compare a 500 and Panda against a Fiesta on size given they compete in different classes. As with the OP, I would compare the Fiesta with a Punto. Ford's 500/Panda is the KA, built by Fiat incidently.

I don't mind Fords. I don't think they're as good as their popularity suggests, and their dealer service seems as patchy as Fiat's from family experience, but there are a lot more dealers to choose from and less far to travel to a good one than for Fiat.

They handle well, are reasonably styled (more interesting than VW & Vauxhall, at least) seem pretty reliable and are largely well built, but out of materials which are only decent in the most obvious areas - the rear door cards on my Auntie's 59 plate Fiesta Titanium would rival a Walls Ice Cream tub for quality. Fiat might not have amazing quality materials, but they're a lot more consistent throughout a car - they don't mislead us with squishy dashboards and save a load of cr*p for the back of the car.

I know the Ecoboost is meant to be a good engine, but Fiat tend to have better engines overall. If Ford were that good at engines they wouldn't use Fiat 1.2 and Multijet engines in the KA and they wouldn't use Peugeot-Citroen HDI diesels in most of their other models.

So yeah, not a bad choice of car - all those thousands of buyers can't be wrong and i'd sooner have a Fiesta than a Polo or God awful Corsa, though I think you could get a heavier discount on a Punto than on the Fiesta which would offset the slightly poorer p/x allowance on the 500 from Fiat. I'm not sure whether the Puntos admittedly poor residual values would be any worse than the over-supplied Fiesta, either, but overall a Fiesta is possibly a lower risk car than a Punto over the long term.

The Ford/PSA 1.4,1.5,1.6,2.0 and 2.2 TDCI engines were a joint venture design between the two companies. The TDCI engines are also built in Brigend supporting UK employment.

The 2.0 TDCI is one the quietest diesel engines I have heard.

And they use Fiat engines in the KA as it is a 500 in drag. It wouldnt be economical to redesign to change it.
 
I've now got a Fiesta 1.0 ecoboost 125. 5 weeks and 1600 miles and I'm getting 42mpg training learners. So no difference in economy. "Normal" driving may show an improvement, but my own individual journeys suggest not. This latest car is also a Titanium, with bigger wheels and tyres and I understand that Ford have worked on the suspension. With the bigger tyres, grip is actually less. It loses grip where the previous car did not on bumpy bends, suggesting it needs smaller tyres to increase the footprint pressure, or the suspension is now too stiff, although it does not feel stiffer. Body control is a little better, but still irritating.
The ecoboost 125 engine is trying to be a racer, while being marketed as an economy feature. There is a changeup light, but if you change up when it illuminates it drops it off the bottom of the power curve.

Funny, IMO you could say much the same about the TA.

Building an economy car out of cheap parts is fine if you're going to charge £6500 for it. The 1.2 Panda Pop can be had new for that, and IMO is good value. Put it on steel wheels with the highest profile, narrowest tyres compatible with safety & it'll both ride comfortably & give good economy.

Using the same cheap parts to build a premium model based on the same design but with draggy low profile wide tyres on easily damaged alloys & charging north of £12k for it is the bit I can't get my head around; the ride will suffer, it'll likely have less ultimate grip on wet roads & it'll use significantly more fuel. It seems Ford are no different to Fiat in this regard.

Just scroll up/down to the "Master Cylinder Failure" thread for an example of what happens when you build expensive cars out of cheap parts - one poor chap is looking at a four figure repair on a car that's just out of warranty.
 
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The Ford/PSA 1.4,1.5,1.6,2.0 and 2.2 TDCI engines were a joint venture design between the two companies. The TDCI engines are also built in Brigend supporting UK employment.

The 2.0 TDCI is one the quietest diesel engines I have heard.

And they use Fiat engines in the KA as it is a 500 in drag. It wouldnt be economical to redesign to change it.

Not aware of any 1.5 TDCi or HDi engines and I've never seen anything that said it was a joint venture. If you could provide written proof I'd be happy to accept I'm wrong but even so, given that Fords previous diesel efforts were decidedly average and PSA's diesels have been great for years I should imagine it was Ford that needed the 'joint-venture' more than PSA in terms of expertise.

Not saying they're not good engines, they are brilliant. More refined than Fiat's Multijets for starters, but given the amount of Fords the UK buys compared to the likes of Fiat because of their 'Britishness' I think it's only right they make something in Britain.

Not quite sure whether it was intentional but your post strikes me as rather hostile given that my post about Ford was perfectly balanced & fair, so pardon me for being equally blunt in return.
 
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