Technical Am I getting nearer to heaven?

[Paraman]

My vision of heaven is to sort out a lumpy idle and a flashing orangeEML light.
I started out with a new exhaust as the old one was leaking at the flexible joint and the rear box was shot. Did not improve the uneven tickover. Since I had recently fitted new plugs, leads and coil after a garage suggestion, I bought a newer and better OBD2 scanner (Topdon AL400) and checked the pre and post o2 sensors. Both passed. Still no DTC's though. Checked the MAP sensor in the air intake, cleaned it with a non residue contact spray. Refitted but no better. Bought a new sensor since they are cheap and quick to fit. No better. My mind started to think there might be a blown gasket between 2 adjacent cylinders, so sent off for a pressure tester kit which arrived today. I was relieved to find all cylinder pressures between 244-250 PSI so I guess the head gasket is fine. There is no sign of any oil in the coolant. What next? Could the injectors (around 82000 miles use) give a lumpy tickover but fine as revs mount?? I see it costs around £50 + postage to send them away for cleaning and testing but not much more for the cheaper new injectors.
Or do I give up and phone a good auto elecrician. There can't be much more to check! At least I have a few more useful tools for my other cars!

 

[Goudrons]

A flashing engine light is usually the way the ECU tells you there's a misfire.

It's regarded as a step up from the solid orange engine light, it's a serious warning some damage may occur, like overheating the CAT if unburnt fuel raises it's temp too far.

First place to start with a misfire is usually the ignition system, perhaps pull all the plugs and see if there's an obviously odd coloured one.
Then check the air system for air leaks.

 

[koalar]

My vision of heaven is to sort out a lumpy idle and a flashing orangeEML light.

Great let’s get it sorted

I started out with a new exhaust as the old one was leaking at the flexible joint and the rear box was shot

As expected but needed doing anyhow

. Did not improve the uneven tickover. Since I had recently fitted new plugs, leads and coil after a garage suggestion,

Throwing parts at a problem can work if your lucky. It’s not what I would do. We don’t have enough information yet

I bought a newer and better OBD2 scanner (Topdon AL400) and checked the pre and post o2 sensors. Both passed. Still no DTC's though.

Great you have a scanner helps a lot
Any pending codes

Checked the MAP sensor in the air intake, cleaned it with a non residue contact spray. Refitted but no better. Bought a new sensor since they are cheap and quick to fit.

Great one thing we know it isn’t

No better. My mind started to think there might be a blown gasket between 2 adjacent cylinders, so sent off for a pressure tester kit which arrived today. I was relieved to find all cylinder pressures between 244-250 PSI so I guess the head gasket is fine.

Great figures. Know two things from this. First you have great compression. Second the belt hasn’t jumped

There is no sign of any oil in the coolant. What next?

Great

Could the injectors (around 82000 miles use) give a lumpy tickover but fine as revs mount?? I see it costs around £50 + postage to send them away for cleaning and testing but not much more for the cheaper new injectors.

Unlikely in a petrol engine

Or do I give up and phone a good auto elecrician. There can't be much more to check! At least I have a few more useful tools for my other cars!

Too early to tell

Year
1.1
1.2

 

[Paraman]

Great let’s get it sorted

As expected but needed doing anyhow

Throwing parts at a problem can work if your lucky. It’s not what I would do. We don’t have enough information yet

Great you have a scanner helps a lot
Any pending codes

Great one thing we know it isn’t


Great figures. Know two things from this. First you have great compression. Second the belt hasn’t jumped

Great

Unlikely in a petrol engine

Too early to tell

Year
1.1
1.2

Great let’s get it sorted

As expected but needed doing anyhow

Throwing parts at a problem can work if your lucky. It’s not what I would do. We don’t have enough information yet

Great you have a scanner helps a lot
Any pending codes

Great one thing we know it isn’t


Great figures. Know two things from this. First you have great compression. Second the belt hasn’t jumped

Great

Unlikely in a petrol engine

Too early to tell

Year
1.1
1.2

Thanks for your comments. It is a 2011 Euro5 1.2 70bhp 169.A4.000. Just checked for codes again, but nothing. The same thing happened when I took it to my local MOT garage, assuming they had a better scanner than I had at the time. I didn't mind the plugs and leads since I intended to replace them soon anyway. What I didn't mention was disconecting the battery for an hour or so, in the hope the ECU would relearn after the new bits I fitted. Not in the position to drive around for a month or so as car now on Sorn and insurance switched to another car.
I have a tick on mis section of scanner. I assume a tick is ok and a cross is either a problem or not tested yet, like the cat...not hot enough yet?
The smell from the exhaust is like any other petrol at start up. No codes for the cat so no idea if it is shot. So, what would be YOUR next move?

 

[koalar]

Thanks for your comments. It is a 2011 Euro5 1.2 70bhp 169.A4.000. Just checked for codes again, but nothing. The same thing happened when I took it to my local MOT garage, assuming they had a better scanner than I had at the time. I didn't mind the plugs and leads since I intended to replace them soon anyway. What I didn't mention was disconecting the battery for an hour or so, in the hope the ECU would relearn after the new bits I fitted. Not in the position to drive around for a month or so as car now on Sorn and insurance switched to another car.
I have a tick on mis section of scanner. I assume a tick is ok and a cross is either a problem or not tested yet, like the cat...not hot enough yet?
The smell from the exhaust is like any other petrol at start up. No codes for the cat so no idea if it is shot. So, what would be YOUR next move?

It’s hard to describe an erratic idle

If possible could post a video of the exhaust at idle. You might have to turn the phone round to point the microphone at the sound

Pretty easy to do on a smartphone. As long as you keep the video very short.

Just attach it from the gallery

 

[Paraman]

It’s hard to describe an erratic idle

If possible could post a video of the exhaust at idle. You might have to turn the phone round to point the microphone at the sound

Pretty easy to do on a smartphone. As long as you keep the video very short.

Just attach it from the gallery

Short as I can get from camera. Engine Does sound rough now!

 

[koalar]

That’s great

The car is running on 3 cylinder

 

[koalar]

The first thing to do is work out which cylinders aren’t firing correctly

I pull a spark plug leads off one at a time and switch the engine on for a few seconds. The one or ones that make little difference are the cylinders not firing

Technically it’s better to unplug the injectors to stop fuel washing down the cylinder. In reality it’s fine for a few minutes and it’s easier for someone not use to cars to unplug a HT lead

Same engine as mine, Starts on two cylinders but the engine will shake quite a bit

 

[Paraman]

The first thing to do is work out which cylinders aren’t firing correctly

I pull a spark plug leads off one at a time and switch the engine on for a few seconds. The one or ones that make little difference are the cylinders not firing

Technically it’s better to unplug the injectors to stop fuel washing down the cylinder. In reality it’s fine for a few minutes and it’s easier for someone not use to cars to unplug a HT lead

Same engine as mine, Starts on two cylinders but the engine will shake quite a bit

Pulled leads off coil one by one. Each time engine ran rougher than before. Spark seen from coil on each of the 4 outputs. Having read of an earlier 1.1 Panda eco having problems with wiring connections I will have a look around my connectors although the 2 vertical ECUs have had their plugs pulled and sprayed with Deoxit D5 (worked a treat on my rotary output knob on a decent amplifier) Ditto plug to MAP sensor. Luckily I have time and patience, but not prepared to spend too much more on an 80k 2011 Panda.

 

[koalar]

Pulled leads off coil one by one. Each time engine ran rougher than before. Spark seen from coil on each of the 4 outputs. Having read of an earlier 1.1 Panda eco having problems with wiring connections I will have a look around my connectors although the 2 vertical ECUs have had their plugs pulled and sprayed with Deoxit D5 (worked a treat on my rotary output knob on a decent amplifier) Ditto plug to MAP sensor. Luckily I have time and patience, but not prepared to spend too much more on an 80k 2011 Panda.

That great

So if you put you hand over the exhaust does the pressure build up and push your hand off

 

[Paraman]

That great

So if you put you hand over the exhaust does the pressure build up and push your hand off

Putting hand over exhaust on tickover was a long business. No great pressure build up and a sad little pouf when hand removed. When wife sat in and raised the revs to around 2k (there is no rev counter on my humble model) the pressure built up quickly and a mighty woosh ensued when hand removed. Also checked for any hissing at the exhaust manifold. Nothing noted.
Having read about other posts on dodgy wiring connections, did find and spray, with detox D5, the connector from one ECU to the coil pack...a 4 in 1 job. Also turned lights off and looked for errant sparks. No joy and no improvement. May have a word, at least, with local Auto electrician, after our Friday walk in town (Inverness)

 

[DaveMcT]

With engine cold, wet the exhaust manifold, start the engine and watch the water dry out. The ports running cold will stay wet for longer. You can also use an IR thermometer. Swap the coils and repeat (with engine cold of course).
If the dry areas move you have a faulty coil. Buy a pair and replace both.
If there is no change, you probably have the 1.1 ECU issue where connection pins lose contact and mimic a faulty coil.

 

[Goudrons]

If it's the 1.2, they aren't noted for that wiring issue.
It's the 1.1 that seems to suffer, though I am not saying it's not a wiring issue.

It appears to be misfiring rather regularly than only running on three all the time.

Usually after work that has disturbed the timing belt the engine light can flash when the vehicle is at load/speed, like 50 mph and above.
It's usually solved with a phonic wheel relearn, but I doubt this is the case as it's misfring at idle and there's no evidence the timing belt has been off.

I am surprised the O2 sensor checks out, all that unburnt fuel is going to screw with it and perhaps cause problems with the Cat.

If you could identify which cylinder is misfiring by removing all the plugs and inspecting them (maybe post an image of them).
Remember to keep them in order they came out!

If you find the cylinder, you could clean the plugs up, swap the coils over and see if the problem follows that coil.

I have noticed you wrote it had a new coil, just the one?

 

[Paraman]

With engine cold, wet the exhaust manifold, start the engine and watch the water dry out. The ports running cold will stay wet for longer. You can also use an IR thermometer. Swap the coils and repeat (with engine cold of course).
If the dry areas move you have a faulty coil. Buy a pair and replace both.
If there is no change, you probably have the 1.1 ECU issue where connection pins lose contact and mimic a faulty coil.

Hard to see or reach the exhaust manifold as it's covered by a heat shield with rusted in screws. In any case as I said several times, a new 4 plug coil has been fitted... it made no difference.. the original is probably fine. strong sparks from the new one. I am discounting faulty injectors. Went to our local engine specialist to ask how much to clean and test an injector. £25 each. What kind of car..Panda. What engine Petrol. We don't do petrol ones. Why not? say I. Back comes the answer 'they never go wrong' Besides, I get full power on acceleration and soon up to 60mph. Slow running is the problem. It is a Euro5 1.2 engine so, apparently the wiring joint is not a problem on these models. Getting close to calling in the Auto Electrician. At least I will have quite a bit to tell him!

 

[Paraman]

If it's the 1.2, they aren't noted for that wiring issue.
It's the 1.1 that seems to suffer, though I am not saying it's not a wiring issue.

It appears to be misfiring rather regularly than only running on three all the time.

Usually after work that has disturbed the timing belt the engine light can flash when the vehicle is at load/speed, like 50 mph and above.
It's usually solved with a phonic wheel relearn, but I doubt this is the case as it's misfring at idle and there's no evidence the timing belt has been off.

I am surprised the O2 sensor checks out, all that unburnt fuel is going to screw with it and perhaps cause problems with the Cat.

If you could identify which cylinder is misfiring by removing all the plugs and inspecting them (maybe post an image of them).
Remember to keep them in order they came out!

If you find the cylinder, you could clean the plugs up, swap the coils over and see if the problem follows that coil.

I have noticed you wrote it had a new coil, just the one?

There is only 1 coil on this car. Does all 4 plug leads. I checked before removing the original. The leads connect 1 2 3 and 4 from left to right, facing the engine. The leads are different lengths so quite hard to get wrong. I suppose the ECU works out the timing and order of firing. I have done the misfire check of plugs...all look the same..slightly coffee coloured. Pull any lead off and the uneven tickover gets worse.
The timing belt was renewed a couple of years ago and the car ran well until this problem which started after offside mirror was swiped by a passing car! Not immediately, car driven home OK but later, when being removed inside the garage to remove busted mirror, it was very hard to start. First time ever! Before you say it, the mirror was manual and unheated so no wires connected to it. I assume it was just a coincidence the problem started on the same day. Perhaps we could start a new thread to probe for possible linkages!!

 

[The Panda Nut]

With the coil described it sounds like you have a VVT 1.2 69HP of vintage >2011?
Have you looked through the throttle body into the manifold to see if its dry or full of mayo?
What sort of plugs are you running?

I have had to throw out 1 set away after a just a few weeks to overcome poor running. Also had a problem with mayo gathering in the manifold that caused misfire, but at higher revs. Cleaning the throttle body and replacing plugs again resolved the issues. Also washed out the breather hoses.

The last poor running threw up a code about oil change needed in spite of it having neen done reently, I repeated this with Catrol edge C3 and its been fine ever since. I have never had anything similar before related to oil in 50 years of driving and maintaining my cars so didnt believe it could be anything to do with the problem we had but it did seem to fix things.

I dont entirely trust diagnostics other than MES or dealer they do not seem to report all the issues. My code reader does not [ick up all that MES does.

 

[MrMagoo]

VVT actuator oil filter may require cleaning?

 

[koalar]

@Paraman
Has told use
It’s a 2011 Euro5 1.2 70bhp 169.A4.000.

It has a coil pack on top of the cam cover it is impossible to get the leads in the wrong order

It’s not a 1.1 ?


Only at idle kind of limits what it could be

The only two things I can think of are lean and compression. Maybe I have missed something out ?

Post 1 eliminate compression

I guess a good start would be to try and confirm this


Post and pre O2 graphed at idle and 2000 RPM would be a start

 

[koalar]

VVT actuator oil filter may require cleaning?

Shouldn’t effect idle but worth doing anyhow should come up with a P0011 code does the same with the wrong oil

 

[MrMagoo]

The way it idles reminds me of an Alfa 75 Twinspark with the VVT disconnected... It went lumpy..