Hi, Can anyone help with an intermittent starting fault on a 2002 Ducato 2.8jtd. This vehicle has had a fault for 18 months, it cranks but won't fire. Starting fluid, ether, etc will allow it to start, but only use it as a last resort. Cranking speed is about 270 rpm, expected fuel pressure is 300 Mpa, actual pressure varies from 60 to 100 Mpa. These figures are as recorded on various scanners (Bosch KTS, Fiat Examiner, Hanatech). While fault codes are often present they won't cause the starting problem, eg speed sensor, or auto trans CAN line. This vehicle is an ambulance (RHD with auto fitted in NZ) and we have had the luxury of swapping components with other vehicles in the fleet, to no avail. The fault can occur daily, or maybe it works ok for a month. Hot or cold makes no difference. Once started it runs perfectly. Small amount of grey/white smoke from exhaust at times, sometimes no smoke. It seems like a small increase in cranking speed would rectify the fault. The following parts have been substituted /replaced with new or second hand: crank sensor,cam sensor, rail pressure sensor, pressure regulator,fuel solenoid, AFM, ECU and key code unit, in tank pump, high pressure pump, injectors, filters, starter, battery. We have bypassed intercooler, removed exhaust in case of blockage, checked turbo, blown out fuel lines, powered thermostart preheater directly from battery, checked compressions. Once the fuel system has been disturbed it seems to work ok for a while, eg by replacing the rail sensor, or pressure reg, but there is no set time or pattern to events. A van would have had a sudden long downward trip by now, but the replacement cost of an ambo is probably 2.5 times the cost of a van, so we struggle on. Also it is a learning curve for other vehicles in the fleet.Various mechanics, auto electricians, diesel injection specialists, electronics techs have all been involved at some stage, but once the vehicle starts fault finding is impossible until its next failure. Any help would be much appreciated.
Technical Ducato 2.8JTD starting problem
- Thread starter Arkk
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Technical Ducato 2.8JTD starting problem
Update on starting problem. Fleet manager asked me to change ECU from another vehicle, I said it has been tried, but he insisted. So I removed ECU and KCU with transponder and key from donor vehicle (520) this morning, fitted them to the problem vehicle (No 578), tried starting, no difference. No fault codes either. To prove a point regarding voltage drop, cranking speed, etc. I connected an extra battery and cables directly to the starter, leaving original cables connected as well-- no difference to crank speed. I then isolated all electrics from starter, connected starter to an independant battery, so starter current draw could not reduce available power to ECU and injectors-- no difference, still no start. I then introduced a second battery to the starter in series with the first, yes 24 volts. Eureka, vehicle fired into life immediately. All it needs is a slight increase in cranking speed to start up, but unfortunately, while this will allow start up, it is not actually finding or fixing the fault. I then spent some time on the Iveco forum and found quite a few people are having an identical problem with their Iveco Dailys--cranks, won't fire, they use easy start or similar starting fluid, and engine starts. there were no solutions as such but at least I know my inability to fix this is shared by many others!!!
Incidentally the donor vehicle 520 had a fault three years ago, where on cruising it would loose all throttle response, it appeared to be in limp home mode. It was very intermittent, and the fault initially lasted only seconds, but gradually got worse, to become unreliable for ambo work. Between myself and two mechanics we spent 120 hours on this problem, changing pretty much every injection component including ECU. Fiat agents said "enough is enough, we will fix it", 3 weeks later the vehicle arrived back unfixed, but with a list of things that shouldn't have been done to a Fiat-they may cause problems- like wiring a protected relay to ign output at fusebox, and wiring an RT horn alert to horn wire. We proved to them that all extras on the vehicle were done professionly, using safe equipment. The vehicle was put back into service, still faulted a few times, then came right by itself, as I said 3 years ago, and is still OK.
Incidentally the donor vehicle 520 had a fault three years ago, where on cruising it would loose all throttle response, it appeared to be in limp home mode. It was very intermittent, and the fault initially lasted only seconds, but gradually got worse, to become unreliable for ambo work. Between myself and two mechanics we spent 120 hours on this problem, changing pretty much every injection component including ECU. Fiat agents said "enough is enough, we will fix it", 3 weeks later the vehicle arrived back unfixed, but with a list of things that shouldn't have been done to a Fiat-they may cause problems- like wiring a protected relay to ign output at fusebox, and wiring an RT horn alert to horn wire. We proved to them that all extras on the vehicle were done professionly, using safe equipment. The vehicle was put back into service, still faulted a few times, then came right by itself, as I said 3 years ago, and is still OK.
Hi Arkk,
I suddenly have exactly the same problem with no resolution, problem started after changing the left strut mount so I thought it may be a loose connnection under the dash. I'm getting a sinking sick feeling after reading your report. I though I must be missing something obvious.
Have you had any more progress. As an aside I own an old ambulance with the 2.5td engine which seems to have had a collosal started fitted before I owned it. Maybe a similar story.
Corky
I suddenly have exactly the same problem with no resolution, problem started after changing the left strut mount so I thought it may be a loose connnection under the dash. I'm getting a sinking sick feeling after reading your report. I though I must be missing something obvious.
Have you had any more progress. As an aside I own an old ambulance with the 2.5td engine which seems to have had a collosal started fitted before I owned it. Maybe a similar story.
Corky
Regarding powering the preheater directly from the battery I also tried this but have just realised that its a flame start glow plug so it needs diesel too which requires the solenoid to be activated too. Did you power both the plug and the solenoid in your test? I'll try that myself tomorrow.
Torq
Member
The preheat jet only kicks in at sub zero temperatures, this system relies on efficient fuel atomisation and high compression to start. As arkk's engine will start with "easy start" or a second battery giving the starter more speed, I'd bet his problem is starter or compression related due to the high mileages ambulances rack up. Corkman, just give a bit of easy start and see what happens or take your battery out and give it a bit of a charge.
Regards,
Torq
Thanks Torq, Well it was -3 celcius yesterday morning and it started perfectly with the obvious smoke from the flame start so I know thats working.
It was above freezing today so I swapped in the 800A cold start battery from the ambulance and it started ok but still a lot more reluctant than usual about 3 secs of starter as opposed to less than 1 usually. I did think I heard a bubble in the tank though during priming so now am suspecting a leak in the low pressure supply or return circuit. Any idea on the lightly culprits here.
Thanks again.
Hi all
Had a similar problem with 05 2.8 Iveco camper. It had bosch common rail
system.Engine got very hard to start when cold especially.Customer had got pump and injectors replaced but no difference.My diagnostic showed up faulty crank sensor.Changed this but still the same.Traced it down to
excessive crankshaft endfloat (thrust washers).Crank sensor pick-up was
pointing towards engine side of flywheel so when starter was engaged the
crank was driven back about 1 mm hence leaving "air gap" too wide.
Engine had to be removed to replace thrust washers.Never looked back.
Had a similar problem with 05 2.8 Iveco camper. It had bosch common rail
system.Engine got very hard to start when cold especially.Customer had got pump and injectors replaced but no difference.My diagnostic showed up faulty crank sensor.Changed this but still the same.Traced it down to
excessive crankshaft endfloat (thrust washers).Crank sensor pick-up was
pointing towards engine side of flywheel so when starter was engaged the
crank was driven back about 1 mm hence leaving "air gap" too wide.
Engine had to be removed to replace thrust washers.Never looked back.
Hi all
Had a similar problem with 05 2.8 Iveco camper. It had bosch common rail
system.Engine got very hard to start when cold especially.Customer had got pump and injectors replaced but no difference.My diagnostic showed up faulty crank sensor.Changed this but still the same.Traced it down to
excessive crankshaft endfloat (thrust washers).Crank sensor pick-up was
pointing towards engine side of flywheel so when starter was engaged the
crank was driven back about 1 mm hence leaving "air gap" too wide.
Engine had to be removed to replace thrust washers.Never looked back.
Crikey thats an unusual one, how long did it take to do the thrust washers?
My problem was just a dodgy injector replace with one I got from austria on ebay for a tenner and all is well.