Re: Calling all start 'n' stop owners!

Think you need to get some legal advice, check your insurance to see if it provides help in this case, may not though.

I just read in the manual that the MIL or yellow engine light flashing indicates a serious problem. At least I'm not imagining it!

Ron, you are having a torrid time - my sympathies.
Quite a lot of useful info on rejecting a car here: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/consumer-rights/

Further to the above, the most relevant bit seems to be:
'A clause in the law known as "early right to reject" specifies that any fault found within 30 days of buying a product entitles the buyer to a full refund. After that period, but within six months, the seller or manufacturer has one opportunity to replace or repair. If that fails, the customer is then entitled to a full or part-refund.'

TrevC said:

Further to the above, the most relevant bit seems to be:
'A clause in the law known as "early right to reject" specifies that any fault found within 30 days of buying a product entitles the buyer to a full refund. After that period, but within six months, the seller or manufacturer has one opportunity to replace or repair. If that fails, the customer is then entitled to a full or part-refund.'

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What I'm unsure about is how the SOGA applies to a car bought on hire purchase or a pcp, since AIUI it's the finance company's car until all payments (including any balloon payment) are made.

Until this point, I'd guess your legal status is that of a hirer or lessee, not an owner, so presumably your legal remedy is to sue the finance company for breach of Contract, rather than the dealer for supplying a defective car under the SOGA. I believe it is only the finance company that can legally reject a car bought on hire purchase or a pcp.

Any decision to sue the supplying dealer under the SOGA presumably has to be taken by the owner, in this case the finance company.

From the government's money advice service website:

Hire purchase:You have protection under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
The vehicle should be of satisfactory quality, fit for its purpose, and as described. With hire purchase, it is the finance provider rather than the dealer who is legally responsible to you if there are problems with the car.

This may explain why Fiat Customer Services have referred you to your finance company.

Anyone with a legal background able to comment?

Also, is anyone able to post a link to the small print of a typical FCA pcp agreement?

Let's hope Fiat and the finance company do the right thing and sort this out before any of these drastic measures have to happen.

The link I posted includes info on finance/PCP purchases:
"Under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Acts of 1974 and 2006, if you buy on a loan or a PCP or a lease, the finance house or the leasing company and the dealer are jointly liable if the car turns out to be faulty."
It also contains a link to the Citizens Advice website.

The car is being towed by Fiat Assistance as we speak. He's had the details off me too and confirmed the engine is misfiring on cylinder 2 (phew, cylinder 1 would have been a nightmare...)


I have spoken to FCA who are Fiat's finance lot and opened a complaint case via them too. They confirmed that they want and require the car to be running perfectly for the life of the agreement and will take it up with Fiat and the dealer. The only reason we did this on finance was because they paid £2250 deposit - that was the deal that made us swap old 500 for new.


There is some other wording about how the dealer should be allowed one chance to repair the car after the initial 30 day period. They've had that and now we (and FCA) can legitimately claim the car is not fit for purpose.


I realise these things can happen and hand on heart I would normally let them check it out further. But the lack of after sales customer service from Ancaster has angered me. I thought they'd be apologetic and embarrassed and offering me alternatives and compensation for the inconvenience we've been through. But they are just going through the motions and "we have no courtesy cars" is never far from their lips. I don't want a courtesy car out of the pool, I want the equivalent level car from their stock whilst mine is being taken apart. I want apologies for me taking time out over and over to chase this BS up and going back and forth to the dealers because they sold me a lemon.

The neighbours probably think it's bailiffs!

Ron, I think I would feel exactly as you do. When you have spent the sort of money that even a modest car costs, you would expect sympathetic and helpful treatment from the dealer. It's absolutely mind boggling that some of them care nothing for repeat sales or reputation, let alone the satisfaction of having a happy customer.
I hope you get it sorted quickly and to your satisfaction. Keep us posted.

Sorry you're having such a rough time. These things do happen, and just to put it in perspective our 500 TA (85bhp) was problem-free for over 3 years / 35,000 miles, as many others have been. However it's more about what processes are in place if something does go wrong, and this is where Fiat and a large number of its dealers are gravely lacking.

Whilst our 500 TA was absolutely brilliant (as were 3 other Fiats & an Alfa), my Sister had a Alfa MiTo TwinAir (85bhp) which was an absolute pig, with numerous problems including two which were very similar to yours - on one occasion it just cut out on a dual carriageway at 70mph and she had to try & coast it into a layby up the road. It'd previously had a new UniAir control module after the first failed at 10,000 miles.

We went back & forth so many times to the dealer that I've lost count, and even when we tried to get shot of the thing back to Alfa, they dragged their heels - the dealer didn't seem to know what they were doing, the finance company (FCA) were OK but not exceptional & Alfa UK were absolutely appalling. The only saving grace was when Italy got involved - they were the only ones who seemed bothered about the customer.

Thankfully, since October last year, new consumer laws have been introduced which replaced the previous somewhat vague stuff with what looks like pretty strict timescales/opportunities for a retailer to rectify a fault before the customer can demand a refund/replacement. A summary of the new guidelines is here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34410782 but having read it, it looks like you're well within your rights to demand a replacement car now - previously there was a slight vagueness surrounding how many chances a retailer could have to try & resolve a problem, but this is clearer now.

I think you need to write or email the finance company, saying they have 14 days in which to inform you when the replacement car will be forthcoming. By all means phone Fiat UK & open a case, but in my experience very little happens in between phone calls & you'll end up getting extremely frustrated by them not knowing their ar*e from their elbows, so FCA finance are probably the way to go for the official stuff.

Just thought, you could always just ask for a refund and go to another, more competent dealer, but you would potentially be without a car for a longer period if you went down that route, whereas if you went for a replacement car you might be lucky in getting a hire car from the dealer or Fiat. Alfa (Fiat) did organise a hire car from one of the hire companies when the dealer we were using didn't have anything available.

JTD_Liam said:

Just thought, you could always just ask for a refund and go to another, more competent dealer, but you would potentially be without a car for a longer period if you went down that route, whereas if you went for a replacement car you might be lucky in getting a hire car from the dealer or Fiat. Alfa (Fiat) did organise a hire car from one of the hire companies when the dealer we were using didn't have anything available.

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We got a great deal when we ordered which I'd struggle to match if we went in new from scratch.


I even priced up a Mini this afternoon but they are no value at all when you add any sort of spec.

jrkitching said:

Also, is anyone able to post a link to the small print of a typical FGA pcp agreement?

Let's hope Fiat and the finance company do the right thing and sort this out before any of these drastic measures have to happen.

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I only have my copy which has all my finance details so am unwilling to post the whole document.

There's a clause about not being allowed to drive the car outside the UK without permission and requiring insurance to be in joint names with FCA which was news to me. Most of the document is about what the purchaser isn't allowed to do and the rights of the credit company to enforce.

However, the agreement does acknowledge in Clause 10.2 that Sections 9 to 14 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 are preserved within the agreement. These are the fitness for purpose terms and ultimately the right to reject via the dealer and credit company.

gazz_bee said:

I only have my copy which has all my finance details so am unwilling to post the whole document.

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Thanks gazz_bee, what you've posted has all the relevant clauses in it.

Details of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 can be found here.

jrkitching said:

Thanks gazz_bee, what you've posted has all the relevant clauses in it.

Details of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 can be found here.

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Your link doesn't appear to work so the url is as follows:-


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

Update. A Fiat technician is now at the dealers. They are replacing the ECU, wiring loom, a thermostat and a cover (for something). Apparently the thermostat was 'weeping' onto the wiring loom causing the problems. The parts won't be in until the 9th June.


Fiat Customer Relations (FCR) are all over Ancaster for this. If they have no courtesy cars they should have contacted Fiat who arrange a hire car through Enterprise. They said to Fiat that they didn't do this because it takes a day to arrange so it would be quicker waiting for a courtesy car to become available at which FCR pointed out to them that they'd had the car for two days already and not given us a car.


Fair play to FCR, they are hassling the dealer and calling us with updates and telling us exactly what is going on with the repair. Once this is fixed I will accept the car back but on the strict undertaking that if it goes wrong again within the year I want a brand new one with no arguments.

ronmanager said:

Update. A Fiat technician is now at the dealers. They are replacing the ECU, wiring loom, a thermostat and a cover (for something). Apparently the thermostat was 'weeping' onto the wiring loom causing the problems. The parts won't be in until the 9th June.


Fiat Customer Relations (FCR) are all over Ancaster for this. If they have no courtesy cars they should have contacted Fiat who arrange a hire car through Enterprise. They said to Fiat that they didn't do this because it takes a day to arrange so it would be quicker waiting for a courtesy car to become available at which FCR pointed out to them that they'd had the car for two days already and not given us a car.


Fair play to FCR, they are hassling the dealer and calling us with updates and telling us exactly what is going on with the repair. Once this is fixed I will accept the car back but on the strict undertaking that if it goes wrong again within the year I want a brand new one with no arguments.

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Ron, just to clarify - is this Fiat Customer Relations in the UK, or is Head Office in Italy involved?

Super Uwe said:

Ron, just to clarify - is this Fiat Customer Relations in the UK, or is Head Office in Italy involved?

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This is UK although when they rang my mobile the number came up as 008888888888. I have a person (Grace) assigned to my case.

Thanks for confirming. As JTD_Liam mentioned earlier on in this thread, it is pure luck a lot of the time what sort of service you get from the various parties!

I haven't had to ring Fiat UK Customer Services for a good couple of years; last time I did I spent most of the call arguing with the fella about a Fiat dealership that he was adamant didn't exist lol

But glad to hear they are on top of it now, fingers crossed the end result will be to your satisfaction.

Update: Parts were due in today but the car won't be ready until at least Saturday according to Fiat. Told them and FCA that I want a new car. This is obviously a major rebuild and I don't want a car that's been taken apart and rebuilt behind a car showroom. I bet when the wiring loom originally went in it was before the engine and gearbox were installed. Now it may well have been bodged and worked around to swap such a major part.


See what happens. All gone quiet.