Technical Twin air engine

[javnas]

I was recently on auto express magazine for those who saw my article. Fiat is well aware that these small little engines are just an experimental unit being thrown at the general public. First , they are not economical, I have found its really hard to keep past 40 mpg. I don't find it a problem because it can be really entertaining. However, the flywheel clutch design is poor as it will start vibrating sooner or later , being very unpleasant for city driving. Tell tale signs is when you hear humming noise when reversing! Simply don't accept excuse from your local dealer that its normal, absolutely not. The timing chain rattles pass 2000 rpm, again poor design. Most of us will be left with hefty repair bills once the warranty is over, hence I'm suggesting we all have a petition for an extended warranty on twin air models. We all need to act quickly before its too late and before we're left with huge repair bills. How to organise the petition is simply left in the hands of mighty guru's already predominating this platform. Info please, thanks.

 

[Ulpian]

This is just speculation.

And there are people here getting much more than 40 mpg out of them.

But it would be interesting to know what the highest mileage TA here is.

Fiat, like all manufacturers, is trying to get CO2 levels - as measured now - down to below a corporate average of 100gm/km.

I think - please correct me as I haven't checked - that all manufacturers have to get their averages below 100 before 2018.... I'll check.

Just checked: By 2020 the corporate average of all manufacturers producing more than 300,000 cars a year has to be 95 gms/km. Seven years!

 

[JTD_Liam]

I was recently on auto express magazine for those who saw my article. Fiat is well aware that these small little engines are just an experimental unit being thrown at the general public. First , they are not economical, I have found its really hard to keep past 40 mpg. I don't find it a problem because it can be really entertaining. However, the flywheel clutch design is poor as it will start vibrating sooner or later , being very unpleasant for city driving. Tell tale signs is when you hear humming noise when reversing! Simply don't accept excuse from your local dealer that its normal, absolutely not. The timing chain rattles pass 2000 rpm, again poor design. Most of us will be left with hefty repair bills once the warranty is over, hence I'm suggesting we all have a petition for an extended warranty on twin air models. We all need to act quickly before its too late and before we're left with huge repair bills. How to organise the petition is simply left in the hands of mighty guru's already predominating this platform. Info please, thanks.

I'm a bit confused as to why you've spoken to Auto Express about the TwinAir engine? My Parents TwinAir doesn't meet the claimed MPG, but neither do a lot of engines. We got just over 46mpg out of the last tank (real world, not on the trip computer), which isn't stunning, but not a disaster either.

In the past 18 months & 15,300 miles I can't say we've experienced any other problems either. Clutch seems fine. We do get a grone in reverse sometimes when reversing at an angle, but it sounds like rear brakes binding rather than the clutch itself. I can't say I've heard any other rattles from the engine either. It naturally sounds a bit rough at idle because of its 2 cylinder design, but there doesn't sound like there's anything untoward going on.

It's admirable if you're fighting the cause of several owners over a fault with an engine, but having first hand experience of the TwinAir engine (both my Parents 500 and Sisters MiTo have the engine fitted) and knowing that someone in the 500 area has circa 40,000 problem free miles on hers, I'm a bit confused about what the actual problem is?

 

[babbo_umbro]

I was recently on auto express magazine for those who saw my article. Fiat is well aware that these small little engines are just an experimental unit being thrown at the general public. First , they are not economical, I have found its really hard to keep past 40 mpg. I don't find it a problem because it can be really entertaining. However, the flywheel clutch design is poor as it will start vibrating sooner or later , being very unpleasant for city driving. Tell tale signs is when you hear humming noise when reversing! Simply don't accept excuse from your local dealer that its normal, absolutely not. The timing chain rattles pass 2000 rpm, again poor design. Most of us will be left with hefty repair bills once the warranty is over, hence I'm suggesting we all have a petition for an extended warranty on twin air models. We all need to act quickly before its too late and before we're left with huge repair bills. How to organise the petition is simply left in the hands of mighty guru's already predominating this platform. Info please, thanks.

Time will tell but so far - car's done 1500 miles - my 4x4 TA shows none of these symptoms. In detail, I don't understand the comment about a noise from the clutch when reversing, the clutch engages in exactly the same way going backwards and forwards.

I think Fiat has produced something over half a million TwinAir engines by now - fitted in several of the more up-market Fiat marques as well as models of Fiat - so I think it's past the experimental stage.

 

[varesecrazy]

I'm a bit confused as to why you've spoken to Auto Express about the TwinAir engine? My Parents TwinAir doesn't meet the claimed MPG, but neither do a lot of engines. We got just over 46mpg out of the last tank (real world, not on the trip computer), which isn't stunning, but not a disaster either.

In the past 18 months & 15,300 miles I can't say we've experienced any other problems either. Clutch seems fine. We do get a grone in reverse sometimes when reversing at an angle, but it sounds like rear brakes binding rather than the clutch itself. I'm a bit confused about what the actual problem is?

my 4500miles in a TA punto is averaging 40's over it's lifetime,
currently 50.8 over a tankful,
rear brakes do tend to squawk after as damp day- so assume there is rust build-up on the wear faces.. not too concerned,
Charlie

 

[jbanfie]

My TA Panda Lounge is starting to get run in just short of 5000 miles on the clock, 5 months old.

I'm now getting 61mpg over the last 1000 miles and my record on the 12 mile run to my kids karate lesson and back is 75.4! I could do much better but we live on top of a hill so the last 1.3 miles is always up hill and kills it!

As I said in my other posts, you've got to drive very carefully and try not to exceed 2000 revs. As my friends Skoda manual says, you should only use 1st gear for about a car length?!

I've not had any of the forementioned issues, but I do wonder if all of this very gentle driving is good for the engine and I think an occasional Italian tune up would be good for the car and maybe make it feel at home?

 

[Ulpian]

Lugging around in a low gear all the time isn't good for any engine, but the TA is very torquey, even if the twin cylinder thrum is evident. But I can't see how anyone can drive it without exploiting the performance at least some of the time. I mean, what about when overtaking or shooting away from a dawdler at the lights?

You'd have to be a very old and nervous pensioner never to accelerate quickly sometimes and anyway running at speed is going to get the revs up.

 

[Yolanda]

A twin cyl engine producing 85 bhp and over 100 lbs ft of torque is in my opinion a highly stressed unit and somewhere along the line something's got to give. But as I say it's just my opinion.

 

[varesecrazy]

9 years on ...that 4500 miles is now 67000

Lovely experience

But weve got a twinair panda that isnt so nice...

Lots of tech required to get it working properly...

They use no oil though

 

[vexorg]

A twin cyl engine producing 85 bhp and over 100 lbs ft of torque is in my opinion a highly stressed unit

It's not that highly stressed compared to many old or newer engines.

 

[Yolanda]

I know it's not on it's own, take for example the 20 Ltr turbo diesel Ingenium engine now fitted in some of the modern Jaguars. If driven hard there only good for about 65k

 

[bugsymike]

I know it's not on it's own, take for example the 20 Ltr turbo diesel Ingenium engine now fitted in some of the modern Jaguars. If driven hard there only good for about 65k

In the past when reporting a fault to the importers/manufacturers we were regularly informed we were the only ones experiencing the problem!
However on going on works training courses talking to other mechanics we soon realised that was just BS

 

[dragonwagon]

I have a hard driven, 102k miles 2013 4x4. Apart from the usual worn out wastegate for the turbo there's no discernible engine wear and the performance continues to improve. I get 38mpg with a heavy right foot. About the same or better than a 141a 4x4 driven similarly.

 

[The Panda Nut]

A twin cyl engine producing 85 bhp and over 100 lbs ft of torque is in my opinion a highly stressed unit and somewhere along the line something's got to give. But as I say it's just my opinion.

Technically you may be right, but in practice the TA feels one of the lowest stressed motors Ive ever driven it will romp up hill at low revs hauling a load or rev like mad, and remains unstressed in feel. Its remarkably well balanced and smooth when revved. OK its as rough as badgers bottom when ticking over and the stop bit of the stop start is a god send!

With modern materials it should be fine if maintained , and IF its not thrashed to within an inch of its life all the time. There seem to be a welter of people who say they rev the nuts off their TA's. Im sure any engine revved hard over many miles will giver trouble down the road. A bit of common sense and moderation I hope will confirm this.

A young woman in our village has a 500 with over 150,000 miles on it. Its only trouble was caused by a carless technician leaving a rag in the engine. It had made 125000 at that point.

 

[vexorg]

I'd say 85hp is pretty mildly stressed nowaday, most others have more power from similar sized engines.
Even the 40 year old uno was 75hp from a 1.1 non-turbo, and old turbo engines of the past (not the modern eco ones) were often cranked right up and lived on for many years.

 

[bugsymike]

I'd say 85hp is pretty mildly stressed nowaday, most others have more power from similar sized engines.
Even the 40 year old uno was 75hp from a 1.1 non-turbo, and old turbo engines of the past (not the modern eco ones) were often cranked right up and lived on for many years.

To me the real test is how many are still on the road in 15 years from new with high mileage and no expensive repairs needed compared with other makes!
In general manufacturers in the search for environmentally friendly cars have made great technological advances, but have ended up with over complicated vehicles that often require specialised parts and attention, which you the end user has to pay for

 

[vexorg]

Under engineered may be a better description than over srtressed

 

[The Panda Nut]

Under engineered may be a better description than over srtressed

Again you may be correct here but, there are probably 100's of thousands of twin pot Fiats running arount that are 40, 50 & 60 years old. The 875 twin is undoubtedly based on some very comeptant and long standing engineering experience. I think it a bit harsh to suggest its not got a decent life span ahead based on established facts. There are a lot of 100,000 mile TA's for sale on the internet and most claim to be running well. The TA unit itself isnt that complex and if there weren't so many people who either dont change the oil or use the wrong grade there might well be very few issues. However, would I buy an old TA second hand? Almost certainly not unless it was clearly very well maintained from new and particulalry that the right oil has been used. There are so few people that look after vehicles of this type to the standard I require I wouldnt want to be the guinea pig for checking out long term reliability.

I dont understand why those who are not interested in cars other than as a carriage from A to B dont just buy themselves a Hyundai or Toyota. Its so well documented how thes things are straightforward (in the main) and with bomb proof reliability. Or of course just be boring and buy a BMW. At least if someone has a BMW you know beyond doubt they are boring and you wouldnt want to talk to them. Toyota drivers are just normal people who are sensible but not madly interested in cars. For them at least there is hope. (Or was before Stellantis killed Fiat)

Anyone that doesn't want the 22nd centuary sophistication and haut couture syle of the Panda should stick to Top-Gear style advice and buy themselves a Geoffry!

 

[Panda IIs]

Under engineered may be a better description than over srtressed

A little harsh in my opinion and experience! In your example 1.1l Uno this equates to 68HP per litre, an 85HP TA equates to almost 100HP/litre (97 and a bit) so not really a fair comparison although I think your point was that the Uno engine could be tuned significantly and survive?

At 100HP/litre as a production car (therefore with certain longevity expectations) I'd expect that there's been quite a lot of engineering gone on?

 

[Marcus Daly]

There are probably 100's of thousands of twin pot Fiats running arount that are 40, 50 & 60 years old. The 875 twin is undoubtedly based on some very comeptant and long standing engineering experience. I think it a bit harsh to suggest its not got a decent life span ahead based on established facts. There are a lot of 100,000 mile TA's for sale on the internet and most claim to be running well.

Aye. If Fiat can't engineer a two-cylinder engine to last, no one can.

I share your nervousness about buying one used though. I wouldn't gamble on one I hadn't been responsible for maintaining myself.