Technical Tappet adjustment? Naah, they adjust automatically.

[RedPeril]

I'm going to have the timing belt checked/replaced with my 2009 1.4L 8 valve Grande having done about 60,000 miles since it was last changed (too soon?) and the Fiat service schedule says to replace the spark plugs and adjust the tappets at this interval. Also, I see the auxilliary belt and water pump should be replaced. I'm not experiencing any misfiring but a slight shuddering occasionally takes place when deaccelerating in fourth gear. The total mileage of the car is 94,000.

One garage I contacted said that the tappets are self adjusting. Is this right?

Any advice or experience would be great.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

Clearances are relatively simple to check.. And are seldom out of spec

Belts and waterpump as a set

 

[AndyRKett]

Hi

Clearances are relatively simple to check.. And are seldom out of spec

Belts and waterpump as a set

Is this one of the engines that requires Shims ? I suspect it's pre-vvt so unlikely to have hydraulic lifters

@RedPeril If it does require adjusting then a lot of fiat engines require the careful placement of the right thickness of metal shims in the top of the lifters to get the right clearance which is a bit of a ball ache compared to literally every other car engine ever made.

 

[bugsymike]

In my Auto data manual it lists1.4 Grande Punto 2005-12 with engine series 350A1.000 as inlet .30 and exhaust .40 and the 16 valve engine as being hydraulic, does that agree with other data on Forum, just to be sure?
My Iveco Dailys with the 2.8 Sofim engine like the Ducatos was similar I suspect, from memory there was a tool to hold the bucket down so you could prise the shim from under the cam lobe, but being sticky with oil they tended to spin round rather than flick out to be changed.

 

[RedPeril]

Thanks for the posts. The tappet adjustment with shims sounds difficult! Gone are the days when all you needed was a ring spanner, a scredriver and a feeler guage! The shim job sounds like one that many local garages might find to be a problem.

My engine code is 350A1.000 so it looks like this isn't a hydraulic lift set up on my car.

The Auto data book sounds useful. Is it generally available?

 

[varesecrazy]

As I said.. Easy to measure.

 

[bugsymike]

The Auto data book sounds useful. Is it generally available?

Re the Auto Data Manuals, you may find old copies on eBay etc. Nowadays it's all online with a yearly subscription for the motor trade and time expires, so not cheap. I used to buy every year at around £100 ish for the petrol and separate diesel versions, I am long retired so the last version I have is dated 2012.
They are good as give technical specifications for a wide variety of vehicles.

 

[RedPeril]

Just looked online for the Auto Data Manuals. There are manuals that I found on eBay but none for my Punto. The online subscription costs definitely make it one for the trade only!

Just on my learning curve, I guess that hydraulic tappets (or lifters as some call them) can't be adjusted? There will be some wear of the cam but this will be taken up by the hydraulic mechanism?

 

[bugsymike]

Just looked online for the Auto Data Manuals. There are manuals that I found on eBay but none for my Punto. The online subscription costs definitely make it one for the trade only!

Just on my learning curve, I guess that hydraulic tappets (or lifters as some call them) can't be adjusted? There will be some wear of the cam but this will be taken up by the hydraulic mechanism?

Auto Data Manuals are not specific to Puntos, all you get is technical specs. over two pages for your model, I could photo that for you possibly.
Assuming yours is adjusted by shims then as @varesecrazy mentioned they don't usually alter much so maybe be within specs. anyway.
Hydraulic tappets are self adjusting using the engine oil pressure so as long as oil changed regularly do not give much trouble.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Pretty sure that year would be shimmed tappets. Of course many of the FIRE engines are shimmed, which, as Charlie says, are very easy to check once you've got the cam cover off but not so easy to do anything about if they require shims to be changed. On the bright side it's very seldom to find them much outside the acceptable clearances. Worth considering too that it can be a bit of a problem getting just the thickness of shim you need.

I tend not to do anything with them unless they are "ticking" loudly with the engine hot. You can expect to hear them ticking from a cold start because it takes a few seconds for the oil to get up to the top end of the engine from a cold start, especially if it's been sitting for a few days without being started. I run the Panda and my boy's Punto on 5w-40, rather than 10w-40 as the "thinner" cold rating probably lets the oil get up there just a wee bit quicker.

As you say, hydraulic lifters/tappets/cam followers/ whatever you want to call them, maintain the clearances by "hydraulicing" themselves with engine oil and are non adjustable. If they are noisy it's a rebuild type job, although often only one or two will need replaced and if the engine is old and not going to be run for very much longer you can do them on the basis of only renewing the damaged/worn ones. Clean engine oil, changed frequently helps a lot if you've got hydraulic lifters - Maybe we should all just be aware clean engine oil changed frequently is a must with today's more intricate engines generally!

 

[AndyRKett]

Just looked online for the Auto Data Manuals. There are manuals that I found on eBay but none for my Punto. The online subscription costs definitely make it one for the trade only!

Just on my learning curve, I guess that hydraulic tappets (or lifters as some call them) can't be adjusted? There will be some wear of the cam but this will be taken up by the hydraulic mechanism?

Hydraulic lifters are fed with oil pressure from the oil pump and use that pressure to take up the slack between the top of the spring and the camshaft, basically even from cold the rocker or the cam lobe will always be in contact with the top of the valve (via the lifter). usually then the valve spring sits below the lifter.

In your case rather than getting hung up on what is or isn't fitted, ask are you having any problem with the engine being overly "tappity" in normal running. Does it sound like the tappets need doing. If the engine is largely running quietly within minute or two of starting, then there isn't really anything to worry about.

Even the older style of Shimmed fiat engines rarely need doing unless they have done some serious miles, usually the car rusts away before this type of work needs to be done.


Edit, now I've posted I have just seen @Pugglt Auld Jock 's response and in a round about way we're both saying pretty much the same thing. It doesn't matter what you have unless they actually need doing, which they probably don't as on all fiats they rarely do.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Pretty sure that year would be shimmed tappets. Of course many of the FIRE engines are shimmed, which, as Charlie says, are very easy to check once you've got the cam cover off but not so easy to do anything about if they require shims to be changed. On the bright side it's very seldom to find them much outside the acceptable clearances. Worth considering too that it can be a bit of a problem getting just the thickness of shim you need.

I tend not to do anything with them unless they are "ticking" loudly with the engine hot. You can expect to hear them ticking from a cold start because it takes a few seconds for the oil to get up to the top end of the engine from a cold start, especially if it's been sitting for a few days without being started. I run the Panda and my boy's Punto on 5w-40, rather than 10w-40 as the "thinner" cold rating probably lets the oil get up there just a wee bit quicker.

As you say, hydraulic lifters/tappets/cam followers/ whatever you want to call them, maintain the clearances by "hydraulicing" themselves with engine oil and are non adjustable. If they are noisy it's a rebuild type job, although often only one or two will need replaced and if the engine is old and not going to be run for very much longer you can do them on the basis of only renewing the damaged/worn ones. Clean engine oil, changed frequently helps a lot if you've got hydraulic lifters - Maybe we should all just be aware clean engine oil changed frequently is a must with today's more intricate engines generally!

Just reminded me. My boy's Punto has the Blue and Me battery drain problem. If he runs it every day it keeps the battery charged well enough but when they were away on their summer hols for a couple of weeks it completely flattened the battery so I had to go over and jump it for him (and leave my CTEK so he could fully charge it over night) It started readily enough with a jump but rattled fit to put a pair of maracas to shame until the pressure built up!

 

[bugsymike]

Just reminded me. My boy's Punto has the Blue and Me battery drain problem. If he runs it every day it keeps the battery charged well enough but when they were away on their summer hols for a couple of weeks it completely flattened the battery so I had to go over and jump it for him (and leave my CTEK so he could fully charge it over night) It started readily enough with a jump but rattled fit to put a pair of maracas to shame until the pressure built up!

Sure it wasn't your knee joints

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

In your case rather than getting hung up on what is or isn't fitted, ask are you having any problem with the engine being overly "tappity" in normal running. Does it sound like the tappets need doing. If the engine is largely running quietly within minute or two of starting, then there isn't really anything to worry about.

Even the older style of Shimmed fiat engines rarely need doing unless they have done some serious miles, usually the car rusts away before this type of work needs to be done.

Absolutely Andy. Back in the day's when I instructed we had a FIAT 128 shop car with these type of tappets and one of the exercises was for me to substitute a couple of incorrect shims and get the student to diagnose the problem and rectify it by fitting the correct shims. I doubt if they ever did one again. I remember also the Leyland O series engines (and the E series if I remember?) which were shimmed too, but in a different way with the shims under the tappet bucket. Oh and don't forget the Hillman Imps. Very very rare to ever actually do one unless valves were being reground or seats refaced. Chances are our OP isn't going to have to do anything with this one. The only one I've done in living memory was "Felicity" - the purple Panda in my avatar picture - after my daughter borrowed her and blew the head gasket. Which was really my fault as I knew the coolant pipe across the front of the engine was leaking before I lent it to her!

 

[RedPeril]

Thanks for all the replies.

Given the engine code it looks like old style mechanical tappets on my car but not to worry as they are easy to check and don't generally need much attention. There is no tappet noise from the engine and I was just alerted to this service requirment by the Fiat service schedule. What's most important is to keep the engine oil changes regular and maybe opt for 5w 40 instead of 10w 40.

I shouldn't expect a big labour charge for checking the tappets.

Just a couple of things...

What's a FIRE engine and yes, a photo of the relevant Auto Data Manual pages would be great bugsymike?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What's a FIRE engine and yes, a photo of the relevant Auto Data Manual pages would be great bugsymike?

Fully Integrated Robotised Engine. A family of FIAT engines to which most of ours belong. Wikipedia has a big entry all about them. I think they were the first engine to be completely built by robots with no human hands involved - seem to remember FIAT making a big thing about it back in the day.

Edit. The cam cover has to come off to use the cam locking tool if you're doing the timing belt in the recommended way so probably why it's recommended to check valve clearances at this time? It's a good idea not to reuse the cam cover gasket on reassembly as they will often leak if you do - it's a rubberized gasket which looses it's ability to seal with age and heat. Also put a wee "dod" of silicon sealant in the sharp corners or it may leak anyway.

 

[bugsymike]

I was going to say "first intergrated robotised engine" but fully sound more likely.
Have included cam belt book details also.

 

[AndyRKett]

Absolutely Andy. Back in the day's when I instructed we had a FIAT 128 shop car with these type of tappets and one of the exercises was for me to substitute a couple of incorrect shims and get the student to diagnose the problem and rectify it by fitting the correct shims. I doubt if they ever did one again.

so I did motor vehicle studies in high school back in the mid to late 90s, being a high school the engines were what ever they could borrow beg or get donated, obviously what they had gained as a few years old when the school got it and would have come from a car at the end of its life at that point, then being a school sat around in the school, so needless to say the engines they were teaching us on in the 90s were all from around the 60s carefully adjusting tappets on push rod engines, and grinding valves on non hardened valve seats.

Basically out of date in the 90s, very unlikely had we gone into motor mechanics that we would have ever come across these engines normally and when I left school the world was already well into using fully electronic fuel injected over head cam engines for everything. So sadly/thankfully playing with shims was never something I had to do even with all the fiats I’ve had I just wouldn’t bother, just maybe put up with the noise

 

[bugsymike]

The first that I can recall shimming was a V8 Triumph Stag engine around 1975 that I rebuilt for on of our customers (roughly two Triumph Dolomite engines nailed together ) After grinding in all 16 valves, then assembling and measuring , I then went over to the local Triumph Dealer and ferreted through their box of shims to find what I needed micrometer in hand. Apart from the odd one or two over the years the last ones I did were on Iveco Daily with the 2.8 Sofim engine. Plus the Ducato one that went into my boat. Most of the other early 70s onwards ohc engines had some form of rocker with a threaded adjustment Lada 1200, Moskvich, Mazda OHC models, Ford Pinto engines. Going back the other way the big old Jags were shimmed DOHC engines and they used to say if you could hear them tap that was good, when they went quiet it meant they were due for a rebuild.

 

[RedPeril]

Thanks for the photos bugsymike, they print up well and thanks for aligning the row description alongside. I'd have been lost without them! I note that the electrode gap on the NGK IKR9F8 plus is not given on the first "page"?