I don't understand though, what is this serious fault?
Technical Suspension spring fracture investigation
- Thread starter Deckchair5
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Technical Suspension spring fracture investigation
We had a poll recently which, if I remember rightly, didn't show any failures under 3 years.
Mind you if you made a habit of driving on freshly resurfaced roads (with plenty of loose chippings) then I suppose that might accelerate things a bit.
Well lets put it this way Argo at 200 microns thin that coating wont take much to penetrate it and even a heavy handed mechanic mealy scratching the surface of it would start a point for the corrosion to start which in turn doesn't say a great deal for fiats production methods
in my younger day and come to that yours as well did you ever see the old time springs with a coating on ..NO.. in fact you and I saw the opposite plenty bloody rusty ones ..ask your Dad Decks and I'm sure he will tell you the same and did I see the problems of to day ..did I hell as like in fact these rusty springs often out lasted the cars body work and in many cases the cars as well and by today's standards seem archaic but at least they didn't snap on you and lasted for hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles ..I wish I could go back there some time ..those were the days of horses candles and no computers ..and of course the none braking spring
I only wish I could tell you people but as I said I cant disclose it because it will jeopardise Bombays case against fiat just believe and trust me for the time being as I am not making this up and fear for the lives of people who may get the springs braking on them
there IS a serious flaw with these springs and wouldn't recommend people to use them from fiat ..thank god I found the Bose ones and Decks went into depth for us and got the info on them from Proven products and with some care fitting these we wont get the recurring problem ,,on that one I am afraid to say only time will tell :chin:
Phil, Unless you want to disclose any facts then I'm not really sure that bringing up this pending court case has any relevance on this thread. You're bringing up issues which are little more than supposition. You can be sure that Fiat will defend any case involving an expert witness with their own expert witness (and remember they have huge sums of money for this). Certainly the outcome will be interesting to the Forum but until that case is won/lost then we can only concern ourselves with the known facts.I only wish I could tell you people but as I said I cant disclose it because it will jeopardise Bombays case against fiat just believe and trust me for the time being as I am not making this up and fear for the lives of people who may get the springs braking on them
It seems to me that Decks has provided those facts which up until now have been missed.
I certainly agree that spring failure is a lot more common today than it was 30 years ago (more chance of seeing flying pigs then
) but those failures aren't restricted to Fiat
Phil, Unless you want to disclose any facts then I'm not really sure that bringing up this pending court case has any relevance on this thread. You're bringing up issues which are little more than supposition. You can be sure that Fiat will defend any case involving an expert witness with their own expert witness (and remember they have huge sums of money for this). Certainly the outcome will be interesting to the Forum but until that case is won/lost then we can only concern ourselves with the known facts.
It seems to me that Decks has provided those facts which up until now have been missed.
I certainly agree that spring failure is a lot more common today than it was 30 years ago (more chance of seeing flying pigs then
Sorry Argo I cant disclose the information and I wont unless Bombay gives ME the OK to do so ..I am not ridiculing Decks very hard work he does on here in fact quite the opposite in fact .I am very glad he has found this issue and alerted the members of it when they get their new springs fitted to their cars fore armed is fore warned as they say and we must take all preventative measures possible to stop this happening I would like to know thought if Decks had the rubber seat fitted under the bottom of the springs on the strut platforms.. I have on mine and when I dismantled the struts had none of the rubbing marks on the original springs :chin:
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On the issue of age when springs snap, my first one snapped prior to the first MoT, so car was between 2 and 3 years old. The second one snapped between 3 and 4 years old and was picked up at 2nd MoT. The only reason I did not notice any change in car was that the snapped spring had wedge onto the anti-roll bar and was supporting the OSF on the roll bar, not the mounting.
This suspension kit I used in my other car had rubber tube around bottom and top spring coils (Eibach):
OP
OP
Yes I think that's the thing to apply to existing springs and perhaps could have been done at the initial assembly factory. For instance, a 5" piece of rubber tubing leading up from the very base of the spring might have stopped mud and grit getting continuously drip fed to the lower cup in the first place
You have to use your eyes, study the photos and draw your own conclusions. As I've said, the old spring looks as good as new. The protective covering is also like new and still shiny over the entire length of the spring showing that it has withstood 5 years of wear and tear, stones and everything the weather throws at it.
This is looking at the top of the old spring. The scuff marks on the outside of the spring are from my own spring compressors and haven't anywhere near penetrated the outer covering.
If you look at the base of the spring though (on the right hand side here)
(Click to enlarge)
then you can see the damage starting to take hold almost one coil up from the base and internal swelling from the corrosion but the rest of the spring is good shape
The fact the springs always seem to break in the same place, almost one full coil up from the base eliminates stone damage or heavy handed mechanic's damage. People who have suffered broken springs often give the clue that it breaks in the same place
"I found a piece of front spring (half circle) on road". Sprint Blue from Wakefield
https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo-technical/29907-free-lowered-suspension.html
If you think about it, the spring catcher mod will only catch a breakage at the very bottom coil of the spring.
The rubber buffer at the base of the spring was fully intact and reused on the new spring installation once it was cleaned out. You can see clearly that all the mud and grime collects just where the spring fractures
The grooves in lower rubber buffer were caked in what looked like sand (even though i live nowhere near a beach) which is ground in dirt where the spring acts like a flour mill, continuously grinding in the mud every time the suspension moves
So, for existing springs, a cut tube or tie wraps placed on the spring so the water and muck running down the spring falls outside of the spring cup will stop the build up of dirt in the bottom spring buffer.
If you live in a coastal area (sand and sea) or are keen on beach driving then this is where the grinding away and the salt element, accelerating corrosion, can easily come in to play.
So a couple of blacktie wraps or split rubber tubing placed around here (shown in red circle) would stop almost all the road grit and grime going any further down the spring and let it fall harmlessly to the road
You have to use your eyes, study the photos and draw your own conclusions. As I've said, the old spring looks as good as new. The protective covering is also like new and still shiny over the entire length of the spring showing that it has withstood 5 years of wear and tear, stones and everything the weather throws at it.
This is looking at the top of the old spring. The scuff marks on the outside of the spring are from my own spring compressors and haven't anywhere near penetrated the outer covering.
If you look at the base of the spring though (on the right hand side here)
(Click to enlarge)then you can see the damage starting to take hold almost one coil up from the base and internal swelling from the corrosion but the rest of the spring is good shape
The fact the springs always seem to break in the same place, almost one full coil up from the base eliminates stone damage or heavy handed mechanic's damage. People who have suffered broken springs often give the clue that it breaks in the same place
"I found a piece of front spring (half circle) on road". Sprint Blue from Wakefield
https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo-technical/29907-free-lowered-suspension.html
If you think about it, the spring catcher mod will only catch a breakage at the very bottom coil of the spring.
The rubber buffer at the base of the spring was fully intact and reused on the new spring installation once it was cleaned out. You can see clearly that all the mud and grime collects just where the spring fractures
The grooves in lower rubber buffer were caked in what looked like sand (even though i live nowhere near a beach) which is ground in dirt where the spring acts like a flour mill, continuously grinding in the mud every time the suspension moves
So, for existing springs, a cut tube or tie wraps placed on the spring so the water and muck running down the spring falls outside of the spring cup will stop the build up of dirt in the bottom spring buffer.
If you live in a coastal area (sand and sea) or are keen on beach driving then this is where the grinding away and the salt element, accelerating corrosion, can easily come in to play.
So a couple of blacktie wraps or split rubber tubing placed around here (shown in red circle) would stop almost all the road grit and grime going any further down the spring and let it fall harmlessly to the road
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BRAVO Decks
I (we) can't thank you enough (will you do my next service ha ha) we can't trust fiat.
I (we) can't thank you enough (will you do my next service ha ha) we can't trust fiat.
Cris
New member
I had the machano mod done to mine a approx 2 months later they failed.
Mind you the FIAT garage who did it were a waste of space so...
Irrespective of the causes of the problem the fact that it happens in pretty much the same place for everyone suggests a design flaw to me.
If it wasn't an important part of the car I wouldn't be worried but suspension, brakes and steering are pretty much essential for safety so this shouldn't be happening.
The airbag connectors also annoy me but they are pretty unlikely to kill me where as snapping springs is a different matter.
Pity really as everyone know talks about how unreliable my car is, when there's one proper fault (spring), one wear and tear type (over-boost valve) and one niggle (airbag warning). Unfortunately these were blown out of all proportion (and even not resolved!) by waster stealers.
Rant over.
:devil:
Mind you the FIAT garage who did it were a waste of space so...
Irrespective of the causes of the problem the fact that it happens in pretty much the same place for everyone suggests a design flaw to me.
If it wasn't an important part of the car I wouldn't be worried but suspension, brakes and steering are pretty much essential for safety so this shouldn't be happening.
The airbag connectors also annoy me but they are pretty unlikely to kill me where as snapping springs is a different matter.
Pity really as everyone know talks about how unreliable my car is, when there's one proper fault (spring), one wear and tear type (over-boost valve) and one niggle (airbag warning). Unfortunately these were blown out of all proportion (and even not resolved!) by waster stealers.
Rant over.
:devil:
NorthernMonkey85
New member
Hmmm this thread makes for an interesting read! I do wonder however, Would replacement springs suffer the same fate?
If you think of it that the springs have probably taken 3/4 years to reach breaking point, would replacements such as the Eibach just go the same way after the same timeframe?
If you think of it that the springs have probably taken 3/4 years to reach breaking point, would replacements such as the Eibach just go the same way after the same timeframe?
Hmmm this thread makes for an interesting read! I do wonder however, Would replacement springs suffer the same fate?
If you think of it that the springs have probably taken 3/4 years to reach breaking point, would replacements such as the Eibach just go the same way after the same timeframe?
I think you will find that competition springs wont suffer the same because they use a different production methods and superior materials and are tested to higher limits for track use
I think you will find that competition springs wont suffer the same because they use a different production methods and superior materials and are tested to higher limits for track use
But they still be rubbing and wearing in the same place. I still don't really understand why they wont snap eventually. Even if they do take a little while longer.
but would a full aftermarket coilover kit stop this? because basically your replacing the spring and strut, that the only definate way I can think to make sure that you get no wear on the bottom of the spring?
Thought I'd share my opinion here. The original springs are about 50 cm long, and then compressed to the half (or something) on the strut. When mounted on the car, it comresses further. This makes this spring compress a lot, and keeps very much energy at all time. Combined with an extremely soft shock absorber (you can compress the original Fiat schock with very little effort) there will be an additional compression to the spring. The spring is also convex if you see it as a "section". When the spring (and schock) gets a strike it will have a stress point at the point given by Deckhair. Having the stress point here will most likely make the spring bend sideways, as it is too much compressed, and too soft, combined with a bicycle pump like strut. So instead of having all forces going down, it goes sideways aswell - from the point given. Which in time leads to a crack. Forces going sideways was propably not the design intention.
Ofcourse corrotion and road grit "helps", but I've had far more dirty springs than these. The springs on the Ritmo Abarth are all brown and full of dirt, but they are heavy duty aswell, with sport shocks, and extremely little travel.
Just a theory, from another view.
Morten.
Ofcourse corrotion and road grit "helps", but I've had far more dirty springs than these. The springs on the Ritmo Abarth are all brown and full of dirt, but they are heavy duty aswell, with sport shocks, and extremely little travel.
Just a theory, from another view.
Morten.
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Suspension Spring Fracture Investigation II
Following on from Decks report I've recently had all 4 springs on my Stilo replaced and each showed signs of substantial corrosion. I think the results provide even more insight into this problem
This is an image of one of my front springs and you can clearly see the corrosion is in exactly the same place as in Deckchairs photos. 1.6 and JTD springs (which are different) therefore both corrode in the same place.
Here's a close up.
As you can see both rear springs are suffering severe corrosion (even worse than the front) but yet again the corrosion point (and therefore likely fracture point) is in a similar relative position as on the fronts.
Conclusion
Because different types of spring all corrode to the same degree I don't think any real criticism of strut design can be made. It certainly seems strange that corrosion is most prone at one position but on my sample at least there were signs of smaller amounts of corrosion at other points along the spring. We could go on to discuss the coating material but at the end of the day all standard Fiat springs appear very prone to corrosion and that's all that can really be said. I don't think failure occurs spontaneously at random. As polls have shown, failure is most common after 4 years although high mileage can shorten this period by perhaps a year. With the Fiat 'spring catcher' fitted then risk to the car/occupants is greatly reduced and lets be realistic about this. How many people will keep the Stilo for 8 years or more?
Prevention
These were taken from a 4.5 year old low mileage JTD. If your Stilo is of similar age with original springs then you can expect them to be in a similar or even worse state and I think you'll agree that looking at the images you wouldn't be surprised if any of these springs failed at any moment. There are far less reports of broken rear springs then fronts but the potential to fail certainly looks to be there all the same. If they are already this bad then preventative measures are a bit late as the horse has already left the stable.
If your Stilo is a lot more recent, or you've just had new springs fitted, then I'd strongly recommend lubricating each spring around the mount and bottom 1.5 coils using WaxOyl (mentioned in Post #4) say once a year.
Will after market springs corrode just the same?
Obviously depends on their quality but I'd say they're unlikely to corrode to the same degree if at all.
JTD spring investigation (same as Abarth)
Following on from Decks report I've recently had all 4 springs on my Stilo replaced and each showed signs of substantial corrosion. I think the results provide even more insight into this problem
This is an image of one of my front springs and you can clearly see the corrosion is in exactly the same place as in Deckchairs photos. 1.6 and JTD springs (which are different) therefore both corrode in the same place.
Here's a close up.
Now we come to the surprise!
Left Rear
Right Rear
As you can see both rear springs are suffering severe corrosion (even worse than the front) but yet again the corrosion point (and therefore likely fracture point) is in a similar relative position as on the fronts.
Conclusion
Because different types of spring all corrode to the same degree I don't think any real criticism of strut design can be made. It certainly seems strange that corrosion is most prone at one position but on my sample at least there were signs of smaller amounts of corrosion at other points along the spring. We could go on to discuss the coating material but at the end of the day all standard Fiat springs appear very prone to corrosion and that's all that can really be said. I don't think failure occurs spontaneously at random. As polls have shown, failure is most common after 4 years although high mileage can shorten this period by perhaps a year. With the Fiat 'spring catcher' fitted then risk to the car/occupants is greatly reduced and lets be realistic about this. How many people will keep the Stilo for 8 years or more?
Prevention
These were taken from a 4.5 year old low mileage JTD. If your Stilo is of similar age with original springs then you can expect them to be in a similar or even worse state and I think you'll agree that looking at the images you wouldn't be surprised if any of these springs failed at any moment. There are far less reports of broken rear springs then fronts but the potential to fail certainly looks to be there all the same. If they are already this bad then preventative measures are a bit late as the horse has already left the stable.
If your Stilo is a lot more recent, or you've just had new springs fitted, then I'd strongly recommend lubricating each spring around the mount and bottom 1.5 coils using WaxOyl (mentioned in Post #4) say once a year.
Will after market springs corrode just the same?
Obviously depends on their quality but I'd say they're unlikely to corrode to the same degree if at all.
OP
OP
Nice photos Argo and that's exactly the same site of corrosion on the front springs isn't it. An area around 180 to 270 degree from the bottom end of the spring and just precisely where it contacts the lower spring cup. Loooks like the same relative place on the rears.
I wonder if Stilochris may have been the victim of a rear spring or front spring failure. The bottom coil flying off could go straight through the tyre for which the spring catcher is supposed to reduce that risk https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo/100780-stilo-dead-luckily-im-not.html
I wonder if Stilochris may have been the victim of a rear spring or front spring failure. The bottom coil flying off could go straight through the tyre for which the spring catcher is supposed to reduce that risk https://www.fiatforum.com/stilo/100780-stilo-dead-luckily-im-not.html
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Re: Suspension Spring Fracture Investigation II
Don't be mislead by the images. At a quick glance the springs look otherwise in good condition but at a closer look this is NOT the case. All the springs have quite a number of what I call corrosion points (far more so on the rears).
For example this is a blown up view of a mark towards the top of one of the front springs:
You can clearly see the covering has already broken down with rust underneath.
Now this is a middle section on one of the rear springs
This looks horrendous in close up but remember the bottom of the spring is far worse than this
Fiat have said from the outset this issue was down to corrosion and I don't think anyone can doubt that now. My view, for what it's worth, is that there isn't that much wrong with the springs in the metallurgic sense apart from having woefully poor protection against the elements! Where road salt comes into this I wouldn’t like to say
My car's done a mere 34K.
Don't be mislead by the images. At a quick glance the springs look otherwise in good condition but at a closer look this is NOT the case. All the springs have quite a number of what I call corrosion points (far more so on the rears).
For example this is a blown up view of a mark towards the top of one of the front springs:
You can clearly see the covering has already broken down with rust underneath.
Now this is a middle section on one of the rear springs
This looks horrendous in close up but remember the bottom of the spring is far worse than this
Fiat have said from the outset this issue was down to corrosion and I don't think anyone can doubt that now. My view, for what it's worth, is that there isn't that much wrong with the springs in the metallurgic sense apart from having woefully poor protection against the elements! Where road salt comes into this I wouldn’t like to say
Re: Suspension Spring Fracture Investigation II
Cheers Argo! Ordered a set of Lesjofors front springs last week. After your post, I rushed out this morning and added an order for rears too!
I reckon the root of the problem is poor quality surface coating. You'd never see an Eibach spring in that condition...
Cheers Argo! Ordered a set of Lesjofors front springs last week. After your post, I rushed out this morning and added an order for rears too!
I reckon the root of the problem is poor quality surface coating. You'd never see an Eibach spring in that condition...
