Technical Sump replacement - 100HP

[Wazzzer]

I have a replacement sump on the way for my 100HP as the thread for the sump plug isn't in very good shape.

I'm assuming there is no physical gasket and something like the Dirko sealant is the way to go?

Many thanks

 

[DaveMcT]

My broken record says Loctite 518 will be the best. Excellent stuff though not cheap.

Check the exhaust pipe bracket threads are OK. Mine got damaged getting the bolt out - its open at the back so developed a ring of hard aluminium oxide on the bottoms end of the bolt threads.

I believe that drilling with a 2mm drill into the threads at the "back" of the bolt just going 3mm down will allow the corrosion to crack away. Worth a try anyway as Al₂O₃ (Alumina) is incredibly hard.

 

[koalar]

there's no mention of a gasket ? on elearn

New sump might not fit too well there only pressed out

I would do a test fit without any sealent first. What ever you use needs to fill any gaps and stay rubbery.

heres the instructions for the 1.2


Clean the surfaces of the oil sump and the engine crankcase thoroughly completely removing the remaining sealant.
Apply silicon sealant to the entire perimeter of the oil sump.
Place the crankcase sump in its housing without axial movements and secure it using the nuts and bolts

Wait for at least an hour after fitting the sump before refilling with engine oil.

 

[DaveMcT]

The 1.4 has a one-piece cast frame that carries the main bearing shells and something like 20 studs and fitted dowels to hold it to the cast iron engine block. The cast aluminium sump bolts under that frame with M6 bolts. Loctite 518 is built for such jobs.

 

[koalar]

The 1.4 has a one-piece cast frame that carries the main bearing shells and something like 20 studs and fitted dowels to hold it to the cast iron engine block. The cast aluminium sump bolts under that frame with M6 bolts. Loctite 518 is built for such jobs.

are you sure

1.4 16v should have silicone ?

Clean the residues of sealant from the mating surfaces between the engine block and the crankcase sump.
- Apply a strip of silicone sealant to the contact surfaces between the engine oil sump and the engine block.
- Place in position and tighten the nuts and bolts securing the engine oil sump to the crankcase to the recommended torque.
Component
Fastening
dia
Value (daNm)
Validity
Engine oil sump (on lower crankcase)
Bolt
M6x1x16
0.9
1.4 16V

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The 1.4 has a one-piece cast frame that carries the main bearing shells and something like 20 studs and fitted dowels to hold it to the cast iron engine block. The cast aluminium sump bolts under that frame with M6 bolts. Loctite 518 is built for such jobs.

Hi Dave. For quite a few years now my standard "go to" sealant is Loctite SI 5980. I've used it on loads of jobs. The old Panda Parade (FIRE engine) when I replaced the sump, water pumps, thermostat housings, etc, etc and I've had absolutely no problems with it - I always give it a minimum of standing overnight to cure before staring up. So what makes this 518 product better? Should I consider it, and why, and could I then just use it "everywhere" as I do at present with the 5980?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ah, now hang on a minute or two, I'm not familiar with the 100hp but isn't this a cast aluminium sump we're talking about here: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=26886

If that's the case then, and I suppose I'm playing devils advocate now knowing you've got a new sump coming, is there a reason why you didn't consider one of the oversize replacement plug kits? I don't know your actual thread size but here's an example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oil-Sump...271028&hash=item28a30145b2:g:rosAAOSwwoRfvltC The VAG sumps are quite prone to thread damage if the plug isn't tightened with a torque wrench and although I, luckily, haven't actually had the need for one myself I know they are very popular with garage workshops and usually you can do the repair in situ.

 

[DaveMcT]

I bought a syringe style tube of 518 approx 2003 for a two stroke motorbike restoration. It did a fabulous job because (being anaerobic) you have all the time in the world to line everything up. It's not slippery like silicone RTV so does not get squeezed out of the joint. It sets only between the joint faces so any excess can be cleaned off with carb cleaner when the job is done. You can also use it as a gasket adhesive which later cleans off better than the likes of Hylomar.

I still have that tube of 518, but to be fair it's likely to run out in the middle of my next "proper' job.

 

[DaveMcT]

Ah, now hang on a minute or two, I'm not familiar with the 100hp but isn't this a cast aluminium sump we're talking about here: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=26886

If that's the case then, and I suppose I'm playing devils advocate now knowing you've got a new sump coming, is there a reason why you didn't consider one of the oversize replacement plug kits? I don't know your actual thread size but here's an example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oil-Sump...271028&hash=item28a30145b2:g:rosAAOSwwoRfvltC The VAG sumps are quite prone to thread damage if the plug isn't tightened with a torque wrench and although I, luckily, haven't actually had the need for one myself I know they are very popular with garage workshops and usually you can do the repair in situ.

The 1.4 engine has a one piece crank bearing carrier and cast ally sump that bolts underneath. It should be possible to fit a thread insert or helicoil to repair the sump plug. After the repair use a Dowty seal washer as they are better able to handle any out of square drilling.

Out of interest the Fiat 1.4 has an immensely strong bottom end construction.

Greg here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnSefxN2FQ0&t=366s talks about his Fiat 124 Spyder engine. It's the 1.4 MultiAir but the block is much the same as 100HP. He shows the crank bearing carrier frame at 5:00. He also discusses a silicone RTV which would have to be used against the crank case as its designed to use the stuff. For replacing the sump pan under the car, I would prefer to use Loctite 518 as you have indefinite open time.

 

[jackwhoo]

Loctite 518 is for sealing two tightly fitting machined surfaces , like an alloy sump to rest of engine.

Do not use loctite 518 for fitting pressed steel parts as an rtv sealant is more suitable.

 

[koalar]

silicone is whats recommended by Fiat


Fills up gaps and still haves some give.


Loctite 518 will not set properly with gaps over 9 thousands of an inch


excellent for pumps thermostat housings and the like.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for that fellas. As I've had great success with the 5980 and am used to using it I think I'll just stay with the "devil" I know.

 

[jackwhoo]

For a sump I would likely not use a fancy sealant unless there was a special reason not to use silicon.
Like Jock 5980 is what I have on hand

 

[Wazzzer]

I managed to find a sump for £60 delivered from Italy so not all bad. It's got to come off whatever happens so I'll see if the current one is fixable once it's swapped over and possibly sell it or have it as a garage ornament

Seal wise I've gone for the same sealant as I used on my 1.8T build for the Golf - Dirko.

 

[koalar]

I managed to find a sump for £60 delivered from Italy so not all bad. It's got to come off whatever happens so I'll see if the current one is fixable once it's swapped over and possibly sell it or have it as a garage ornament

Seal wise I've gone for the same sealant as I used on my 1.8T build for the Golf - Dirko.

I can't believe this statement lead me to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHlDpLSn7sg

which I watched to the end. Mainly because there no music except from the ratchet spanner

 

[DaveMcT]

silicone is whats recommended by Fiat


Fills up gaps and still haves some give.


Loctite 518 will not set properly with gaps over 9 thousands of an inch


excellent for pumps thermostat housings and the like.

A steel sump can be all shapes Silicone is best. Fit it with VERY gentle pressure from the bolts, then tighten correctly after the cure has developed.

An alloy sump does not have wide gaps. The issue is getting the joint boxed up during the open time. No problem on the bench but can be a real problem from under the car. If you can get it together easily then use silicone. If you expect a struggle to do it quickly, then 518 is ideal.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I can't believe this statement lead me to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHlDpLSn7sg

which I watched to the end. Mainly because there no music except from the ratchet spanner

Thanks for flagging that up. I too watched it to the end and loved the lack of music in particular - why does everything have to be accompanied by music these days?

I almost wet myself laughing when he just tapped it with the hammer and lifted it off. He's obviously not encountered one of our Fiat ones? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMWVVDWKExA&t=121s That's exactly what the one on my boy's Punto Easy is looking like right now! Not actually leaking any oil yet though, can't be far off it though!

The Dirko stuff looks good - but I can't see why I'd use it rather than my Loctite?

 

[Wazzzer]

No reason at all; if anything it's good to have an idea of a few different alternatives that have worked for people.

Anything is better than my previous CVH equipped Fords - a rubber gasket for the sump. Not the easiest while being upside down and fighting the downpipe that ran under the engine. It usually resulted in a split somewhere which reared it's head a few weeks later

 

[koalar]

The Dirko stuff looks good - but I can't see why I'd use it rather than my Loctite?

518 is safer. It doesn't set except in the absence of air. Any that squashes inside just mixes with the oil and doesn't cause any problems. But doesn't fill gaps or damage. Old stuff Scrapes of fairly easily. Sets fairly firm

silicone or rubber type. If you put too much on can squeeze little worms on the inside that can block oil passages. But will fill up any gaps or damage removing the old sump. Can be difficult to clean up with a scrapper but can be dissolved with a solvent. sets fairly soft.


swings and roundabouts

lots of people have problems with flange fitting leaking. Or gasket squishing out to the inside. Nearly all leeks and problems are either poor preparation or too much used.

 

[jackwhoo]

Thanks for flagging that up. I too watched it to the end and loved the lack of music in particular - why does everything have to be accompanied by music these days?

I almost wet myself laughing when he just tapped it with the hammer and lifted it off. He's obviously not encountered one of our Fiat ones? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMWVVDWKExA&t=121s That's exactly what the one on my boy's Punto Easy is looking like right now! Not actually leaking any oil yet though, can't be far off it though!

The Dirko stuff looks good - but I can't see why I'd use it rather than my Loctite?

Better for joining two parts where both parts contribute to the strength of the assembly , think of straightening ladder frames that are bolted to the base of cylinder block and the sump joins to the ladder frame.

Cheers Jack