General Steal of the decade...

[Marcus Daly]

Give us the Twinair or give us death!

 

[AndyRKett]

Out of town, you have to work it pretty hard, it has hardly any torque.
And if its tiny 10.8V lithium battery provides any meaningful power to the engine through the Belt Starter Generator, I'd be amazed. Couldn't feel a thing. Maybe it would be even more gutless without it?

When the fiat mild hybrids first came out, I calculated (I think) that with any drive being provided to the motor the load it would save from the engine, would be about the same as if you turned off the aircon on any other car.

So you can basically think of it as the hybrid drive gives just about enough power to turn the aircon compressor.

 

[rmjbn1]

So you can basically think of it as the hybrid drive gives just about enough power to turn the aircon compressor.

That sounds about right to me. It has a gauge showing when the auxiliary battery is deploying energy back to the Belt Starter Generator... otherwise you'd never know!

Not tried the 3cyl firefly.. but of course without the turbo..and any 1.0 will feel flat

Aye, I did think 'this really needs a turbo.'

I grew up with 2CVs so I really didn't mind the lack of torque, and I prefer small cars anyway. I'm sure the 1.0 three-pot Aygo I hired previously had more grunt than the Hybrid 500 tho (obviously a lighter car).

And I'm not trying to put anyone off the mild hybrid, I was just surprised how different in character it was to my old Panda. I think anyone considering it as a replacement for an older 500 or Panda should try it first - I found it needed a change in approach to driving it and took a bit of getting used to. It might be right for some; I don't think it's for me.

The only thing that bothers me is the claim that it will lower emissions because it's a hybrid and uses less fuel. It won't because it isn't and doesn't

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I’ve mentioned here before: mild hybrid is little more than slightly enhanced stop/start - it stops the engine a little sooner and starts it a little later, with the initial pull-away done by a beefier starter motor. The rest of the time it’s the petrol engine – and only the petrol engine – doing all the work. Misuse of the term hybrid.

 

[AndyRKett]

I’ve mentioned here before: mild hybrid is little more than slightly enhanced stop/start - it stops the engine a little sooner and starts it a little later, with the initial pull-away done by a beefier starter motor. The rest of the time it’s the petrol engine – and only the petrol engine – doing all the work. Misuse of the term hybrid.

Again something I pointed out when the Mild Fiat Hybrids first came out and people argued like hell with me that they would be amazing and super fuel efficient and save the planet.

As you say they're a slightly enhanced stop start, which is probably about the most credit they deserve. Even then with the extra load they place on the aux belt, I can see that being a point of failure on these cars as they get older, and I seem to think the Aux belt on these is not cheap. I also think the lithium batteries will also be a point of failure, and a very costly one at that.

 

[Marcus Daly]

That fake "hybrid" lash-up is an emissions fiddle, nothing more. Fiat has form for this, see also Pandas defaulting to "Eco" mode.

It's for Fiat's benefit, not ours.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well folks, few weeks on. Managed to get this notion out of my mind. The Avensis is a great car. Doing me nothing but well so far. But if anything happened it tomorrow, next week or next year etc, I'd be coming back to the Panda one way or another. And if all goes well in Toyota-land, I think in a few years 2-3, I'll maybe go out and buy myself a Panda - should the notion still persist (and three years after selling mine, it does...). I read today that there's a new 4x4 x 40˚ version coming, meaning revival of the 4x4 to some extent - and a bit of an extension of life for the current model.

Every time I see one on the road, usually a Pop model - or any variant of the 500 - it makes me smile. And there's something to be said for that, truly. There is no shortage of prestige, ultra-high end cars, cutting edge EVs and even the odd supercar on the road on any long trip. Yet the Panda stuck in traffic of the 500 with poor lane discipline, being driven by a 6ft plus guy that barely fits in or whoever owns it ... I've seen every type of person in a Panda and 500 alike. I think I'm finally past my caring of what people think.

I think this is the smart way to go. Without jumping back too early and making a loss and without giving up the desire to own one altogether forever.

In the final stages of interviews for a degree apprenticeship at my long term place of employment. If I get that, and manage to pass it in a couple of years, I think that would be a sufficient excuse to make a change and drop some serious money (if need be) to get a nice Panda. From that point onward money shouldn't be a concern much anymore at all, but that won't change the love of simple motoring and seeing through the hype of expensive, flashy show-off cars that keep you up at night stressing. I think I lost a lot of my priorities gained over my time as a Fiat owner in the last couple of years, at least now to come back, I know I'm not missing anything on the other side. I will post updates if any happen

If you manage to kill off a Toyota I will be very surprised!! MY experience is they go on foe ever and long after they look as if they are scrap!

 

[porta]

If you manage to kill off a Toyota I will be very surprised!! MY experience is they go on foe ever and long after they look as if they are scrap!

Not so the more modern ones that are afflicted with the VAG disease, building them much cheaper for the same premium price…the prices of some components rendering them uneconomical to repair.
Methinks their pickups have, at least, not succumbed to that philosophy, and are still old school and fixed with a hammer (except their under-cooling)

 

[Marcus Daly]

I ran Toyota and Lexus hybrids as company cars for most of the last twenty years and none of them ever needed anything other than an annual service. I had four in a row—all faultless.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

That fake "hybrid" lash-up is an emissions fiddle, nothing more. Fiat has form for this, see also Pandas defaulting to "Eco" mode.

It's for Fiat's benefit, not ours.

Worth pointing out it’s not just Fiat - most car brands now have ‘mild hybrid’ variants, and all are marketed as if they are ‘real’ hybrid.

 

[varesecrazy]

Worth pointing out it’s not just Fiat - most car brands now have ‘mild hybrid’ variants, and all are marketed as if they are ‘real’ hybrid.

Its a cheap way of making OLD models 'city compliant'..

Targets of air quality... as we all know its having no benefit.. other than the HYBRID badge

Every MOT I am still amazed how low the twinair emissions are ... and all consigned to the past

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Every MOT I am still amazed how low the twinair emissions are ... and all consigned to the past

Slight difference is that the MOT figures are for things the catalyst should be removing (carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons, and for a diesel, smoke and particles too) and so should be tiny (ideally zero).
The emissions that need to be reduced for city air quality and the environment generally are carbon dioxide and the oxides of Nitrogen (NOx), which are not tested for at the MOT (yet!) but are to allow a car to be sold new. The TwinAir had much higher carbon emissions in the newer 'real word' tests than the older lab predictions suggested it would, and has high levels of particulates and NOX too (a small petrol engine with a turbo pushed hard can be as bad as a good diesel in creating these). That's why the TA (and the MJ) was dropped.

 

[porta]

Let’s not forget that, wehn stricter emissions started to come in, a lot of the manufacturers DID put greater controls on
I remember replacing a golf diesel exhaust particulate filter, (that didn’t last long) and vans and trucks had both particulate filters and INOX exhaust systems…but even then, with the advent of catalytic converters, it was just moving the issue, where does all the precious metals come from!

 

[gazz_bee]

Slight difference is that the MOT figures are for things the catalyst should be removing (carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons, and for a diesel, smoke and particles too) and so should be tiny (ideally zero).
The emissions that need to be reduced for city air quality and the environment generally are carbon dioxide and the oxides of Nitrogen (NOx), which are not tested for at the MOT (yet!) but are to allow a car to be sold new. The TwinAir had much higher carbon emissions in the newer 'real word' tests than the older lab predictions suggested it would, and has high levels of particulates and NOX too (a small petrol engine with a turbo pushed hard can be as bad as a good diesel in creating these). That's why the TA (and the MJ) was dropped.

Very good point, petrol cars have been trending towards emissions more associated with diesels. My previous petrol (3 cylinder turbo, direct injection, high compression) left the chrome exhaust tips obviously sooty. My current one is a 4 cylinder variant of the same engine but has a petrol particulate filter and the chrome doesn't soot up at all.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Very good point, petrol cars have been trending towards emissions more associated with diesels. My previous petrol (3 cylinder turbo, direct injection, high compression) left the chrome exhaust tips obviously sooty. My current one is a 4 cylinder variant of the same engine but has a petrol particulate filter and the chrome doesn't soot up at all.

Yes, beware those who’ve jumped to a small turbo petrol having been frightened off diesel - many new petrol cars now have a particulate trap and the issues associated with that

 

[AndyRKett]

Yes, beware those who’ve jumped to a small turbo petrol having been frightened off diesel - many new petrol cars now have a particulate trap and the issues associated with that

There is a lot to be said these days for holding onto and looking after an older car, than always chasing something newer which requires a lot more care and maintenance

 

[StevenRB45]

Not seen any issues with blocked GPFs, mainly as the exhaust temps are significantly higher so they don't need to be forced to regenerate.

Other points yep... complex cars gonna be complex, what you save on fuel you'll likely spend on maintenance unless you're changing every 3 years.

Of the 2 diesel still has more built in failure these days though..the dreaded AdBlue countdown seems like a fun way to spend money.

 

[porta]

Missed the adblue on all our vehicles, including the farm and commercial vehicles
Nothing ever sat right…it’s a bit like vhs and Betamax, Betamax lost out to an inferior product and Phillips video disc, well, it’s the hydrogen of the trio, perfect in principle!

 

[AndyRKett]

Of the 2, diesel still has more built in failure these days though..the dreaded AdBlue countdown seems like a fun way to spend money.

Of all the diesels in my family I don't know of any with Adblue.
Neither of mine have it, though the mini has an extra large fuel door and a blank circular depression next to the fuel filler which I always assumed was for cars fitted with adblue.

While Adblue is brilliant for removing the NOX from exhausts I understand this was something that some companies (mercedes seems to spring to mind? i might be wrong on that?) who fiddled the software for the Adblue so in normal running, non was added to the exhaust, then if it thought it was being tested (as with diesel gate) it would then put the Adblue into the exhaust like it was supposed to.

A friend of mine from out NCT class had a Vauxhall Mokka diesel, and apparently its a very common problem with those for the Adblue tank to rupture, causing the car to throw a tantrum that the tank is empty and the car would flash a million warnings till the the tank was repaired.
But thanks to Covid and supply chain issues even with cars in Warranty they could not get a replacement tank and Vauxhall HQ said you could not repair the tank. So therefore under warranty the car was effectively written off Vauxhall bought the car back and they went off and got something else. Makes me wonder if there is a field of Mokka's somewhere all with broken Adblue bottles.

 

[StevenRB45]

It's very common on Mercedes and later Vag products to get a message "AdBlue low, X miles to none-start" and sometimes filling the AdBlue fixes it. However a lot of the time it doesn't.

Parts issues are common place as well as fearsomely expensive so plenty of places now offering a "temporary" fix of reprogramming the ECU and switching the light off to stop it failing an MOT. Chances of the actual fix being carried out after that? Maybe 0.3% but they can't advertise it as a permanent fix any more than you can advertise smashing the guts out of a dpf, but can advertise "dpf solutions".

Very common on PSA as well...1600 quid for an AdBlue tank, the pumps fail don't come without the tank, last about 4 years. In that case they add insult to injury in that the AdBlue tank occupies part of the area the fuel tank does on a petrol car. Fuel capacity is reduced so you don't get the increased fuel range of a diesel due to it carrying a gallon and bit less fuel.

As a result we've got a similar fuel door and blanked off AdBlue port to the mini.