Technical Running bad, cylinder head

[koalar]

for those who haven't seen spray welding, cool video from the 70s, interesting and educational at the same time. Wish there were more made like this

proper way to fill pits without distortion

 

[koalar]

not sure why but Euro 5 engines have a different head gasket kit

a lot of Amazon and eBay listings are wrong with 2003-2012 listed as the same

Earing 037.461 fitted fine and £20 cheaper on Amazon than eBay for some unknown reason

 

[portland_bill]

timing belt is impossible to fit while the cam is locked in place. Had to back it up one tooth fit the belt. Turned the engine over a few times. Timing doesn't quite line up. About the same as when I took it apart.

If this is a 1.2 without timing marks, the camshaft is not keyed to the pulley. The cam pulley bolt is slackened, the crank and cam held with the tools. This sets the cam and crank correctly to each other. Then the belt is fitted and tensioned, then tighten the pulley bolt. Detailed quite well in Haynes.

 

[koalar]

If this is a 1.2 without timing marks, the camshaft is not keyed to the pulley. The cam pulley bolt is slackened, the crank and cam held with the tools. This sets the cam and crank correctly to each other. Then the belt is fitted and tensioned, then tighten the pulley bolt. Detailed quite well in Haynes.

correct 1.2 VVT 69HP 2011

I used http://4cardata.info/elearn/312/2/312000000/312000000/312000005/312001191
no need to loosen the pully

I suspect Haynes and ppmonline incorrect moved the pully back half a tooth. Mine appears half a tooth out but the pully alignment tool shows its not out. The left side of the timing belt is super tight. I had to remove the locking tool twist the cam back half a tooth put the belt on and then twist the cam back. The locking tool doesn't fall in on mine but is close and taps in. It was the same with the old belt

not a great picture but the alignment tool shows the pully to be spot on. Which save undoing the stupidly tight tx55 pully bolt torqued to 70 Nm its going to be well over 100 Nm to undo

 

[koalar]

This is the timing set I used, cheapest I could find at the time, Funny thing is, it took just as much effort and time organizing the most cost effective parts, than doing the job. There were cheaper but nobody had stock

part one locks the camshaft (from the back)

part two sets the pully if its been removed (be aware, the bolt suppled has the wrong pitch thread)

part three locks the crankshaft

part four tightens the tensioner, it snapped as soon as I used it. Underneath it is my homemade version. works perfectly. Just two holes drill in some plate just under 10mm apart, with a couple of brick nails hammered in. The plate is from its old gearbox selector so technically it repairing itself.

Bought some brick nails years ago, Brilliant things, there High carbon steel, tough as they are, But heat and quenched they are harder than a file. I have used them to make one off tool, scribes, pin punches, centre punches and so on.

its very important with the VVT to only turn the Crank clockwise, if you overshoot go round twice more.

 

[koalar]

its alive

done a couple of short journeys then gave it a once over. Couple of small whoopsies'. I didn't put any sealant on the cam cover gasket on porpoise in case I needed to take it off again. Fine at idle, but has thrown oil everywhere. Now sealed up properly. Also had small drip from one of the thermostat hoses. Took them off and cleaned up the pipes retightened everything down again and its fine.

done around another 15 miles stopped for an hour or so then came back

Temperature, heaters, oil and coolant all normal. No leaks, Drives fine, idles fine,

it'd going to be used several times a day this week, fingers crossed it will hold.

Needs new coolant, oil change and a replacement exhaust stud. Probably sort the rest on Saturday,

also really needs a left hand engine mount at sometime

 

[DaveMcT]

The cam and crank locks require the cam pulley to be loosened. You fit the belt, apply correct tension and retighten the cam centre bolt. This way tensioning the belt does not pull the timing out. However, when the engine was running fine with the old belt, all you need to do is mark the cam wheel and adjacent cylinder head with Tippex. Fit the belt and tension it. The timing will be out by one tooth. Slacken the tensioner, move the belt one tooth and retention. This correctly aligns the Tippex marks and the job is done.

If the engine is opened up (e.g. to work on valves) you will need to time the engine using locks and the cam pulley turning free. But if its a belt change only, you can do it without.

 

[koalar]

The cam and crank locks require the cam pulley to be loosened.

There's loads of false information on the internet. Including some with incorrect timing marks on the older 8v's, which is the spread all over the place.

the pully is set with tool fiat part number 2.000.004.200 part 2 in the photo above
this is set without the belt is present. Picture in post 24 shows me checking mine is correct

you don't need to ever undo the pully unless you need to strip the head down. Setting via the belt as per some online instruction will miss time the engine by fraction of a tooth and is just plain silly and undoing more than you have to

here's the instructions on setting the pully correctly

1032B40 TOOTHED DRIVEN PULLEY (ONE) - R + R WITH TIMING BELT REMOVED - Fiat - NUOVA 500 - eLearn - 4CarData

The left side of the belt is supper tight Crank -> tensioner -. cam i couldn't fit my belt without backing off the cam slightly.

here's the instructions for changing the belt

1032B14 TOOTHED TIMING BELT - R + R FOR TIMING ADJUSTMENT OR REPLACEMENT VERSIONS WITH AIR CONDITIONER - Fiat - NUOVA 500 - eLearn - 4CarData

These were what I followed, and worked, no need to release the pully. if you do it will be a fraction out

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

On the later engines, as long as you use the locking tools, there really is no way you can go wrong but on the earlier engines, where you don't need locking tools but line up the sprocket marks with the marks on the casings, there is considerable confusion regarding what lines up with what on the crankshaft. This post correctly identifies the points of reference (marked in red) in the illustration about two thirds of the way down the page: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/broken-timing-belt-help.31529/. I have seen at least 2 descriptions, one actually in a manufacturer's instruction sheet, which shows the sprocket mark lining up with the little bulge in the oil pump casting just before the correct timing mark. This is definitely incorrect. If you time it on the oil pump "bulge" then the cam timing will be advanced relative to the crankshaft. It'll almost certainly run like this as it's not going to be enough "out" to get valves "kissing" pistons but it won't run well and will probably light the EML. Not knowing what's wrong you may well then do a Phonic wheel relearn which will put the light out but won't sort the root problem.

By the way, and perhaps of incidental interest? I've noticed that when you lock the crank with the official locking tool it sets the camshaft so No1 is on TDC compression (No4 therefore "on the rock" between exhaust and inlet) but if you line up the crank sprocket mark with the oil pump casing, as you do on the earlier engines, then the pistons are, I think, all half way up/down the bores. I mention this because the later engines - the ones with the VVT cam sprocket so 69hp engines - are interference engines. So, if you have one of these it's definitely best not to turn the crankshaft very much once the belt is removed! If you look at the crank sprocket's wee "pip" - that goes into the wee hole in the auxilliary belt pulley - you'll notice it's at 6 o'clock when timed up with the locking tool but nearer 8 o'clock when timed up by the marks.

 

[koalar]

Post these before wiping off my phone.

this is where the timing mark lines up when using the locking tool

all locked up

its possible to fit the cam locking tool 180 degrees out. The rectangular cut out must be up right

pully setting tool. I only used it to confirm the pully was spot on, the bolt suppled in my set was the wrong thread

pistons are all half way down while the Crank is locked, This is also the correct orientation of the head gasket

I didn't test if the engine is in fact an interference. I forgot/and couldn't be bothered to fully test. I started, from memory the valves come down .7mm and the gasket is around .3mm, There's quite deep pockets in the top of the pistons. I was going to put some bluetac under the valves and set a piston at top dead centre, In the end I just cracked on.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks Koalar, I find that very interesting and has added to my "knowledge base". In particular what you have illustrated regarding the timing of the crankshaft sprocket. It's obvious from what you've shown that the pistons are all half way up/down the bores with the crankshaft locking tool installed. As far as I know that crankshaft sprocket has not changed in many years, although much older engines used a thinner belt with more widely spaced teeth, especially on the 1.1 - so earlier versions of our engines, using the same sprocket we have, which are timed by lining up that mark on the crank sprocket with the projecting "flange?" on the oil pump casting, because this will place the crankshaft a quarter turn before where it is shown in your illustration, will end up with their pistons 2 at TDC (I'd guess 1&4?) and 2 at BDC (2&3?). All of quite academic interest of course because you will use the timing procedure appropriate for the engine being worked on, but interesting to nerds like me non the less.

By the way, I can see from your 4th picture, that you have the VVT cam sprocket so I believe we can safely say your engine is the interference type - I believe all VVT FIRE engines are interference?

Thanks very much for your post, I really enjoy seeing this sort of thing and how different people go about things.

 

[koalar]

Yes VVT 69HP interference according to the books

I was going double check for myself.

 

[DaveMcT]

As I said earlier - Lock the crank and paint mark the cam wheel. Fit the belt and tension. The paint marks will probably be out by one tooth so adjust the cam position and refit the belt. You will see the marks pull into line as you tension the belt.
If you look the cam and the crank it becomes very hard to get the tension correct. The cam cant move do the belt is left loose on the front side. When you remove the cam lock, the belt balances out and the timing is off by one tooth.
The cam locks are needed when the cylinder head has been fully stripped but are not needed for a timing belt change.

 

[koalar]

Its had a hard life since being repaired
mostly short journeys 3 to 6 times a day
been up some steep hills around Leek and a bit of motorway
still fine. Its payed for the repair several times over in saved bus tickets. So everyone is happy.

 

[A3jeroen]

Except the bus company.

gr J

 

[koalar]

Still going strong

Had a panic attack a few days ago

Coolant was pouring out quicker than I could fill it up

Coming from behind the timing covers

Turned out to be crack in the core plug

Could not buy one anywhere locally a good fifty percent couldn’t understand

Core plug, frost plug or welch plug

One kept trying to sell glow plugs

Gave up and ordered online

Arrived and fitted today

 

[irc]

Still going strong

Had a panic attack a few days ago

Coolant was pouring out quicker than I could fill it up

Coming from behind the timing covers

Turned out to be crack in the core plug

Could not buy one anywhere locally a good fifty percent couldn’t understand

Core plug, frost plug or welch plug

One kept trying to sell glow plugs

Gave up and ordered online

Arrived and fitted today

View attachment 415870

Had the same problem. Parts places don't seem to know what a core plug is nowadays.
I got the part numbers of EPER for a 1.2, ended up buying nearly a full set for that one engine as most were very crusty.
I guess someone ran it with just water for most of its life.
(Which is probably why the steel coolant pipe went, which led to the overheating, failed head gasket, pressurised coolant, and finally a split in one core plug!)

 

[DaveMcT]

I found one on eBay but it took a while. The algorithm defaults to glow plugs.

Engine Core Plug Fiat 30 mm Genuine Punto Panda Bravo Brava Stilo 14329101 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Engine Core Plug Fiat 30 mm Genuine Punto Panda Bravo Brava Stilo 14329101 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

Forum ePer is down (again) so can't check the part number.

 

[koalar]

As I said arrived and fitted

everything been fine since

Top hat type core plug part number

55182787​

 

[DaveMcT]

Thanks.
A closer look today and mine affected by a little surface rust. Easy to deal with. I’m not concerned internally as it had good coolant.