Technical Rear subframe

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Looks like the weld just hasn't been carried on right to the end of the joint? you can see this clearly in the second picture where the weld finish "pool" is clearly visible. I don't know if they're all like this though? The condition of the metal looks very good - wish my Panda's axle looked as good - So, if it was me I'd be keeping a good eye on it but not particularly worrying if the "crack" doesn't start to spread. Having said that though, the third picture does seem to show the gap may be widening because the wee blob two thirds of the way up does look like it's pulled away from the metal surface to the left? If you think about the forces the spring is exerting on the pan it's pressing down on it so is tending to open up this "crack"

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

Thanks Jock;

I only noticed this today when viewing a series of photos I took while lying down under the car to see if any corrosion was creeping in. I couldn't actually see the 'crack' from that angle. I have the car booked in for its annual service in the next week so I'll ask my mechanic to have a look (and at the off-side as well) while he's got it on the hoist. The car is nearly ten years old but isn't subjected to rough roads, even by Australian standards(!), and has only covered 21,862 miles.

 

[bugsymike]

Maybe - I hope so.

Here's a blow-up of that photo;
View attachment 415225

Just curious re the 50 years of Mazda, in 1975 I worked at a Mazda Dealeship on the Mazda 1000, 818,626, 929, RX3 and RX4s also the pickup truck the B1600. Later the early FWD 323s, generally they were all well bit and reliable, apart from timing chains on the 818 @17k and of course RX3 water seals mostly.

 

[John202020]

If it's going to crack its usually from the top, our car

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If it's going to crack its usually from the top, our car

Hi John. No cracks in our Panda yet but the degree of corrosion looks very similar and makes me extremely nervous whenever we go over a big bump or have to drive along one of the cobbled streets. It's going to be one of my "big" projects as soon as better weather returns next year (been saying that for over a year now but I really mean it this time). I'm not going to mess about I'm going to just go right ahead and fit one of I M Axles pattern parts - I like their advert which says they make the spring pans from thicker steel. I'm guessing you did an axle on yours? If so did you drop the axle off complete with the 3 bolt front mounts or did you pull the pivot bolts on the front mounts? Whichever you did, did they dismantle cleanly or were they rusted in?

 

[John202020]

Hi John. No cracks in our Panda yet but the degree of corrosion looks very similar and makes me extremely nervous whenever we go over a big bump or have to drive along one of the cobbled streets. It's going to be one of my "big" projects as soon as better weather returns next year (been saying that for over a year now but I really mean it this time). I'm not going to mess about I'm going to just go right ahead and fit one of I M Axles pattern parts - I like their advert which says they make the spring pans from thicker steel. I'm guessing you did an axle on yours? If so did you drop the axle off complete with the 3 bolt front mounts or did you pull the pivot bolts on the front mounts? Whichever you did, did they dismantle cleanly or were they rusted in?

I pulled the pivot bolts, but they are just too long to come out easily unless you bend the brake pipe flexi a scary amount my advice would be to cut the bit off that pokes out of the nut it only needs a small amount to clear the hex end of the bolt
The biggest issue will be the brake pipes.
The stub axle bolts came out OK even though quite rusted separating the stub from the axle was quite a challenge it was welded on with rust.

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

Just curious re the 50 years of Mazda, in 1975 I worked at a Mazda Dealeship on the Mazda 1000, 818,626, 929, RX3 and RX4s also the pickup truck the B1600. Later the early FWD 323s, generally they were all well bit and reliable, apart from timing chains on the 818 @17k and of course RX3 water seals mostly.

I bought my first Mazda, a 1200 Coupe, in 1971 and owned nine up until 2013. Half of them were commercial vehicles, vans etc, pressed into service as private cars - always trying to be 'different'. The last was a B2000 Cab Plus SDX ute which I owned for 25 years. I worked at Mazda Aust. headquarters for a few years in the early 90's in warranty. They were all bullet-proof reliable and solidly built. The missus caught the bug from me and now has a Mazda CX-3, her third Hiroshima product. I still luv 'em. The reason I finally abandoned the marque was that they were getting too common and unexciting (might as well drive a Toyota), while the 500C Twinair is anything but. I admit to a certain trepidation about the FIAT given their past reputation in this country but the car has a certain character that makes every trip a joy.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I pulled the pivot bolts, but they are just too long to come out easily unless you bend the brake pipe flexi a scary amount my advice would be to cut the bit off that pokes out of the nut it only needs a small amount to clear the hex end of the bolt
The biggest issue will be the brake pipes.
The stub axle bolts came out OK even though quite rusted separating the stub from the axle was quite a challenge it was welded on with rust.

Thanks John. Luckily my flex hoses and metal pipes (flex to cylinders) were all replaced last year so should come apart pretty easily. I did have to enlist the help of Kenny at the fiat garage and his oxyacetylene torch to get the original flex to front to rear pipe tube nuts slackened though and by the time we'd finished the flexes were so badly damaged that I left it with him to finish the job as it would have been dangerous to drive home!

I was particularly interested in the front pivots because I'd rather not risk snapping off any of the bolts holding the brackets to the floor - so your advice on cutting the projecting threaded ends off is very helpful. In fact that will get rid of some of the rusty thread anyway thus maybe making unwinding the nuts easier? just got to hope the bolts aren't rusted into the bushes?

The 4 nuts on the back of the hubs look pretty crusty on mine and I'm going to give them a bit of heat, slaister them with release oil and then deploy my vibro tool which should shift them. The rear brakes were completely rebuilt this year with new cylinders and shoes so I'm hoping I can just undo those 4 nuts and swop over the hubs as units. However, from what you say, that may not be as simple as I'm hoping?

I'm hoping the whole operation won't take me too long as Mrs J will be driving my Ibiza whilst the Panda is being "operated" on and I fear for the state of my alloys which so far, 6 years into it's life, don't have a mark on them.

 

[John202020]

Thanks John. Luckily my flex hoses and metal pipes (flex to cylinders) were all replaced last year so should come apart pretty easily. I did have to enlist the help of Kenny at the fiat garage and his oxyacetylene torch to get the original flex to front to rear pipe tube nuts slackened though and by the time we'd finished the flexes were so badly damaged that I left it with him to finish the job as it would have been dangerous to drive home!

I was particularly interested in the front pivots because I'd rather not risk snapping off any of the bolts holding the brackets to the floor - so your advice on cutting the projecting threaded ends off is very helpful. In fact that will get rid of some of the rusty thread anyway thus maybe making unwinding the nuts easier? just got to hope the bolts aren't rusted into the bushes?

The 4 nuts on the back of the hubs look pretty crusty on mine and I'm going to give them a bit of heat, slaister them with release oil and then deploy my vibro tool which should shift them. The rear brakes were completely rebuilt this year with new cylinders and shoes so I'm hoping I can just undo those 4 nuts and swop over the hubs as units. However, from what you say, that may not be as simple as I'm hoping?

I'm hoping the whole operation won't take me too long as Mrs J will be driving my Ibiza whilst the Panda is being "operated" on and I fear for the state of my alloys which so far, 6 years into it's life, don't have a mark on them.

The hub nuts were very crusty I used a "impact" socket in a normal wrench not even a breaker bar, some of the studs came out with the nut attached but that didn't matter, unless you unhook the hand brake cable at the handle you'll need two new star lock washers if you want to work on the whole assembly away from the car our car was 11 years old when I replaced it these pics show how clean the studs were even thought the other side looked bad

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The hub nuts were very crusty I used a "impact" socket in a normal wrench not even a breaker bar, some of the studs came out with the nut attached but that didn't matter, unless you unhook the hand brake cable at the handle you'll need two new star lock washers if you want to work on the whole assembly away from the car our car was 11 years old when I replaced it these pics show how clean the studs were even thought the other side looked bad

Thanks again. That all looks pretty similar to what mine look like. I find your experience very encouraging! My intention is to do a post similar to the one's I've done previously (cam belt, front struts etc) when I tackle this next spring.

 

[Baglady1990]

Maybe - I hope so.

Here's a blow-up of that photo;
View attachment 415225

I wish my underside looked as pristine as yours!! But yes have you been under and poked that crack? That would worry me! It does look like a poor wield but still

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

Hi Baglady, nice to see you back! It doesn't look too bad for ten years does it?. I haven't even directly seen that crack, much less been able to poke it, I'd never have known about it normally - getting too old for crawling about under cars. The car's going in for its annual service in the next week or so so I'll ask my mechanic to have a gooses at both sides. There are a couple of things I'd like to have checked out this time, as well as a coolant change, even though it's done only 1350 miles since Nov 2021.

 

[koalar]

Maybe - I hope so.

Here's a blow-up of that photo;
View attachment 415225

I suspect they all look like this as it’s the opposite side of a butt joint and the weld hasn’t fully penetrated

Too wet here at the moment to check mine. I can’t be bothered lying in the mud.

Tried to find a photo of the correct section on eBay but lost the will

Will check when drier outside unless someone beats me to it

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

I suspect they all look like this as it’s the opposite side of a butt joint and the weld hasn’t fully penetrated

Too wet here at the moment to check mine. I can’t be bothered lying in the mud.

Tried to find a photo of the correct section on eBay but lost the will

Will check when drier outside unless someone beats me to it

I'd appreciate that koalar, thanks.

 

[sammy19]

Well got my garage cleared the second pic shows the rear of the car and the absorber on the floor has a collapsed top bush so they will both be changed ( there was a banging noise of sorts coming from the rear end }so hopefully that is the cause, the first pic shows the cup which I have nearly finished cleaning so it looks like the frame still has some life left in it

 

[chris3234]

Well got my garage cleared the second pic shows the rear of the car and the absorber on the floor has a collapsed top bush so they will both be changed ( there was a banging noise of sorts coming from the rear end }so hopefully that is the cause, the first pic shows the cup which I have nearly finished cleaning so it looks like the frame still has some life left in it

I hope you haven't just jacked that up straight in the middle of the beam

 

[sammy19]

The Jack is supporting the beam, it is there to lower and lift the beam not the car.

 

[chris3234]

The Jack is supporting the beam, it is there to lower and lift the beam not the car.

Oh are you changing it now then?

 

[sammy19]

Oh are you changing it now then?

No I am cleaning the rust off it to see what is left and it does seen to be ok I just want to try and stop it rusting any further, I will use possibly jenolite to kill what rust is left and then maybe Waxoyl to slow the rusting down, that is my intention, the axle does not seem to have severe rust, it has just had an mot done with no advisories other than one tyre, it has never had an advisory for rust, the axle does seem solid.

 

[Ralf S.]

No I am cleaning the rust off it to see what is left and it does seen to be ok I just want to try and stop it rusting any further, I will use possibly jenolite to kill what rust is left and then maybe Waxoyl to slow the rusting down, that is my intention, the axle does not seem to have severe rust, it has just had an mot done with no advisories other than one tyre, it has never had an advisory for rust, the axle does seem solid.

Once you've Jenolited it, have a look at Lanoguard as a waxy alternative to Waxoyl. It's made from sheep wool oil something, but it comes in a squirty bottle, you do an 'Enry (you'll have to ask your dad) and it dries to a clear, slightly brown waxy finish that's see-through, so you can keep an eye on what the rust is doing. It will make any rusty metal look darker, which is better when you're under there looking at it.. and creeps well into any crevices, nooks and crannies etc. so it will get into places you can't even see.

I've used it on my new X, just to give it a head start... and apart from it takes a while to dry, it seems to be very repellent. You just top it up whenever it looks like it's fading away (once every year or two..).


Ralf S.