Technical Please help! 1.2 overheating

[strawberry111]

Hi all. I'd really appreciate your insight with an issue that I am facing. Fiat 500 2016 1.2 Lounge 39k miles Automatic. I was driving, and got the alert indicating that car was overheating. I immediately stopped and topped up with water. Then saw this liquid leak onto ground on left passenger side (please see picture attached) and the engine area smoked. There was also an ethanol-like smell. I have taken it to a garage and they're saying that the head gasket needs to be repaired - how can this happen at 39k miles
Does it seem that it is truly a head gasket problem or is the garage inflating a problem? I have only had the car for a year and driven it 2k miles.

 

[the green vanper]

This looks like coolant liquid. That's sure.

Smoked engine I'd say it'd be coolant sprayed on the hot engine elements. And that's where the ethanol smell would come from, too.

Where does the leak come from? Perhaps it's a loose / broken hose. That happens.

Overheating could be caused by air in the cooling system, and that could lead to serious problems, which a head gasket replacement could be one of the solutions. But not only...

Damaged head gasket often mean that oil and coolant are mixing. So you could have oil in coolant or coolant in oil (=emulsion like butter under the oil cap). It could also mean exhaust gases in the heating system (=exhaust gases smell from the vents).

When you arrived at the garage, was there still liquid in the coolant reservoir tank? Have you had any more information that the engine is overheating during the ride? How long / far was the ride? Were you using the heating system? Was the air coming out of the vents hot or cold?

I think that we have not enough data. Try to locate the leak first.

 

[strawberry111]

This looks like coolant liquid. That's sure.

Smoked engine I'd say be coolant vapours on the hot engine elements. And that's where the ethanol smell would come from.

Where does the leak come from? Perhaps it's a loose / broken hose. That happens.

Overheating could be caused by air in the cooling system, and that could lead to serious problems, which a head gasket replacement could be one of the solutions. But not only...

Damaged head gasket often mean that oil and coolant are mixing. So you could have oil in coolant or coolant in oil (=emulsion like butter under the oil cap). Could also be exhaust gases in the heating system.

When you arrived at the garage, was there still liquid in the coolant reservoir tank? Have you had any more information that the engine is overheating? Were you using the heating system? Was the air coming out of the vents hot or cold?

I think that we have not enough data. Try to locate the leak first.

Thank you for your response.

I am really not sure where the leak is coming from. The leak only happened after topping up with water. The liquid on the ground is coming from somewhere on the left side and the liquid is near the left side passenger front tyre.

I have not checked for emulsion liquid under cap as I was so scared and I thought the car was going to catch fire. After the car cooled down, it drove fine for another 10 minutes (as I couldn't stay where I stopped) before it started overheating again.

The coolant reservoir seems empty. I cannot see anything inside it.

I was not using heating system.

 

[the green vanper]

That adds some more details, thanks.

Before driving off to the garage, have you checked the water level in the coolant reservoir? How much water did you put in the engine?

It seems to me that the coolant could have been almost all gone when you stopped as you say it started leaking only when you topped it with water... But the colour of the coolant on the photo is not that faded, so perhaps it wasn't that much diluted...

10 minutes' drive is from my point of view too much if there was no coolant at all.

The need to replace the head gasket can be caused by engine overheating. But the head gasket damage can be also the cause itself.

Perhaps someone with more experiance in mechanics or with this engine will be able to tell some more...

 

[AndyRKett]

When you drive obviously the coolant in the system gets hot, but the pressure in the system prevents the coolant from turning to steam therefore the temperature cannot rise above 100°C

If the coolant system has a hole or a leak however the pressure is lost the water turns to steam and the engine over heats, if you continue to drive a car with an over heating engine the often unfortunate result is the cylinder head which is made from aluminium on these cars gets too hot and warps because of the heat and that then breaks the seal of the head gasket. So it is likely the head gasket is not the cause but a possible result of continuing to drive the car with no coolant (petrol cars get hot very quickly)

You said this started after filling up the coolant? Is there any chance the cap was not back on properly or tightly? Was it notably low before you filled it up which could suggest a leak was already happening?

Another common problem with cars which in your case is now 7 years old, the cambelt should really be replaced, the belt powers the water pump and both are often done together, the water pump impeller is often made from plastic which can get brittle and brake off with age and so you have no coolant being moved around the system and the car overheats.

Unfortunately the engine could be quite badly damaged from continued driving after the initial over heating

 

[AnthonyH]

You should take it to a different garage and tell them to fix the coolant leak.

The coolant leak is the only problem that looks definite.

In the past I've had a garage tell me I needed a new head gasket - when all I needed was the water pump.

Be sure not to mention it going to another garage or the head gasket. Let the new garage decide afresh.

Of course you may need a new head gasket but definitely get a second and even third opinion before outlaying for that very expensive job.

 

[John202020]

Thermostat is known to fail and leak, not sure if Fiat changed the design but all earlier cars had this fault, first place I'd look on the right hand side of the engine just left of the battery.

If you've cooked the engine then it is possible you need a new head gasket but its also important to check the head is flat after the overheating

 

[steveras57]

I had similar happen to me sudden warning lamps and overheating message this is what i found!.
One of the most common coolant failures on 500,s is that the plastic pipe from the thermostat to the heater matrix breaks of flush with the thermostat housing causing a sudden near total loss of coolant, -any half competent home mechanic can check this!.

You need to remove the air filter box- take out the2x 10 mm bolts remove the allen bolt from the air intake clamp on the front grill and ease the hose back, lift the airbox gently and feel underneath at the back there is a small rubber hose that pushes onto a stub on the back of the box,remove it- then undo the jubilie clip on the large hose that runs to the rocker cover and pull off the hose dont drop the clip!- by lifting up and back gently, the air box will pop out of the throttle body and the rubber grommet at the back that holds it in place!
.
The thermostat is located on the right hand end of the rocker box slightly lower down near the engine ECU- there is a large bore water pipe that goes in the front, the heater matrix pipe is at the back /right side and is a smaller diameter pipe, if you hold the rubber hose at the thermostat end and wiggle it you will, probably find that the plastic pipe has snapped of inside the rubber hose!

You will need a new thermostat and some one to fit it! on E-bay there are aftermarket ones with a METAL outlet this cures the issue!, it can be "fiddly" to get the broken piece of pipe out of the rubber hose.

The problem now is if running without coolant has overheated the head gasket? again on-bay you can get a block test kit or"sniff test" as its some times called, this is a little device you put into the expansion bottle top and put a measured amount of blue fluid from the kit into, you run the engine and if there is any exhaust gas present in the coolant(from a blown gasket) the fluid turns bright yellow!.

Of course the thermostat( if it turns out to be broken) needs to be replaced first and the system re-filled with coolant and blead before you can do this test! the amount of damage(or not) will depend on how far you drove with no coolant in the engine!(assuming the head gasket was not a problem BEFORE the overheating issue!).
if you want any more info please ask! hope its not to bad ! let us know what you find if you investigate the thermostat!
best of luck.
steve

 

[Ralf S.]

Thermostat is known to fail and leak, not sure if Fiat changed the design but all earlier cars had this fault, first place I'd look on the right hand side of the engine just left of the battery.

If you've cooked the engine then it is possible you need a new head gasket but its also important to check the head is flat after the overheating

This ^ is by far the best suggestion, mainly because I was going to say the same thing.

A head gasket failure rarely causes direct loss of liquid. Coolant can seep into the exhaust or the oil.. or the engine can run hot and it evaporates.. or exhaust gas getting past the gasket can "pressurise" the coolant and spray it out of the header tank.. but I have *never* seen a head gasket leak directly onto the floor.

Given the mileage.. a Head gasket is almost entirely impossible, since you have obviously been running anti-freeze/glycol which prevents corrosion of the gasket amongst other things... although for sure someone could have cooked the engine previously, which damaged the gasket, then sold it without properly fixing it, so anything is possible.

Given the age... and the location of the leak.. your have, as above, much more chance of a thermostat failure, or a good old fashioned radiator leak. Get on your knees with a phone and take photos of the bottom of the radiator and the hose there.. if it's all wet by the radiatore then that's good. Radiators are quite cheap.

Even though it's probably not the head gasket.... it will be if you drive the engine with no coolant in it.. so fill the header tank up with tap water, put the cap on and drive it no more than 5 minutes. If you can't get somewhere in 5 minutes, then get it towed there.

One peculiarity of air in the system (or in your case, no coolant) is that the temperature gauge can drop, since once all the boiling hot coolant has run out, there's only air in there and air doesn't get as hot as coolant .. so a low reading is not necessarily a good thing. Don't drive the car for more than a few minutes.


Ralf S.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi all. I'd really appreciate your insight with an issue that I am facing. Fiat 500 2016 1.2 Lounge 39k miles Automatic. I was driving, and got the alert indicating that car was overheating. I immediately stopped and topped up with water. Then saw this liquid leak onto ground on left passenger side (please see picture attached) and the engine area smoked. There was also an ethanol-like smell. I have taken it to a garage and they're saying that the head gasket needs to be repaired - how can this happen at 39k miles
Does it seem that it is truly a head gasket problem or is the garage inflating a problem? I have only had the car for a year and driven it 2k miles.View attachment 438332

Hi,

probably the most common failure leaving a puddle ON THE Left,
is a hose joint breaking, next to the battery.. On the end of the engine

Lift the bonnet, and look there yourself

That area Should be one dry, any sign of water pink fluid.. Or just generally damp is helping pinpoint the issue


In itself this is NOT related to Head Gasket (and a Lot cheaper to fix

Let us know what you see

 

[jrkitching]

Hello and a very warm welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear about your problem.

I have taken it to a garage and they're saying that the head gasket needs to be repaired - how can this happen at 39k miles

Quite easily. It can happen at 39 miles if the engine is run for any appreciable length of time without sufficient coolant.

Given the mileage.. a Head gasket is almost entirely impossible

It's almost impossible for the leak to have been caused by a failed head gasket; a failed thermostat housing outlet pipe is far more likely, and a well known issue on these engines.

But I'd say it's also very likely that the head gasket has now failed; once all the coolant is lost, head gasket failure is pretty much guaranteed unless you stop driving the car pretty much immediately. If you try to limp it a few miles home, this result is almost certain. And pouring cold water into an overheated engine can also cause HG failure by shock cooling.

In your case, you've given yourself the best change by stopping as soon as the light came on. Unfortunately by the time the over temperature warning light illuminates, chances are that the gasket is already toast.

HG failure most likely isn't the cause of the leak, but it's a probable consequence of it. I'd agree that you don't start stripping down the engine until you're certain it's necessary.

To repair this, the cause of the coolant leak first needs to be found and fixed and the coolant replaced. Then you pressure test the cooling system and do a compression test on the engine. If it passes both tests, then the HG is still serviceable and you have been very lucky.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

 

[varesecrazy]

Thermostat is known to fail and leak, not sure if Fiat changed the design but all earlier cars had this fault, first place I'd look on the right hand side of the engine just left of the battery.

My 2018 Looks all metal..
But I bought a spare housing that lives with the spare wheel (I wonder which will ever see daylight again..)

 

[jrkitching]

I wonder which will ever see daylight again

I hope so - it's prudent to pull the spare wheel out once a year, just to make sure there isn't anything there that shouldn't be (like water from a hidden leak), and to check and reinflate the tyre so that it's actually serviceable when you need to use it!

I've seen one that was quite badly chewed by some sort of rodent, though Mr Mouse (or perhaps his larger friend) wasn't at home.

 

[vexorg]

When you drive obviously the coolant in the system gets hot, but the pressure in the system prevents the coolant from turning to steam therefore the temperature cannot rise above 100°C

Pressurised water will go above 100°C, 100-120°C is possible.

I've read it through twice now, where is it leaking from in the engine bay? have you seen where its leaking from?

 

[Baglady1990]

Reading this gives me shudders!! I remember all too well all the issues I had with coolant loss!

Surly the garage in question did a compression test? If it is the HG then the engine is toast … or at least a very expensive fix! I would be having the car looked at by another garage first just to make sure!
Then it’s either contacting club 500 italia for a quote or sadly another car!
I check and have checked my coolant once a week for the past 4 years! After my 500 nightmare it’s one thing that most people DO NOT do at all!!!! Considering its check or your car could die ….. you think most or more people would!

 

[jrkitching]

Reading this gives me shudders!!...

….. you think most or more people would!

I just did, largely as a consequence of being reminded by this thread.

And the point previously made about the first sign of a problem being the coolant temperature dropping is well worth remembering. Once the car is at its operating temperature, any variation of the gauge from its normal position should be taken as a sign to stop as soon as safely practicable and investigate.

Don't rely on the overheat warning light saving your engine if coolant is lost.

 

[the green vanper]

I just did, largely as a consequence of being reminded by this thread.

And the point previously made about the first sign of a problem being the coolant temperature dropping is well worth remembering. Once the car is at its operating temperature, any variation of the gauge from its normal position should be taken as a sign to stop as soon as safely practicable and investigate.

Don't rely on the overheat warning light saving your engine if coolant is lost.

Same with heating. If the temperature of the air drops rapidly, it means there is no coolant in the heater, but an air bubble. No AC of course, and mostly to be observed during colder days / nights, when heating is on.

 

[strawberry111]

Hello everyone. I am back with an update. But first, I would like to thank each and every one of you for all your very valuable input.

Called the garage today and told them that I do not believe that it is the head gasket so will be coming to get the car for a second opinion. They said to let them have another look and will let us know. Seems like they just wanted to make some extra money off me

Turns out it was the thermostat as steveras57 mentioned!! A new thermostat has been inserted.
Thank heavens that the head gasket is fine - there was also no mayonnaise anywhere. The car was run for about 2 hours with the occasional revving, waited for the fan to kick in and see what happens and the car is fine.

I am traumatised yet grateful.

 

[steveras57]

Hello everyone. I am back with an update. But first, I would like to thank each and every one of you for all your very valuable input.

Called the garage today and told them that I do not believe that it is the head gasket so will be coming to get the car for a second opinion. They said to let them have another look and will let us know. Seems like they just wanted to make some extra money off me

Turns out it was the thermostat as steveras57 mentioned!! A new thermostat has been inserted.
Thank heavens that the head gasket is fine - there was also no mayonnaise anywhere. The car was run for about 2 hours with the occasional revving, waited for the fan to kick in and see what happens and the car is fine.

I am traumatised yet grateful.

Glad it worked out for you! symptoms exactly the same as what happened to me hence my advice! did you make sure they fitted a thermostat with a metal pipe though?.

 

[the green vanper]

Happy that it went fine and keeping the fingers crossed that nothing wrong happened to the engine

For the first weeks check regularly the coolant level in the reservoir BEFORE you drive and be ready to top up.

And then get a habit to check on a regular basis