See this thread....
My radio always tuned to traffic announcements, and I'd say with train & tube outages I hear about almost every day, they are pretty much on track already in this respect.A cynic might say that the next stage in the London Congestion Charging master plan would be to reduce bus train and tube services which would mean less money spent on transport
... and what I don't get, is why this tried to be represented with bad connotations? "they will use these new roads we build for them, how dare they!"There is a truism that states that if you build and improve more roads more people will use them, partly because those that used to use public transport will use their own vehicles and partly because people will go for jobs/promotion further away from home because access is easier and quicker.
Sorry, I fail to see your point. We are better exactly because more people now are able to drive on given route, which is the was the whole point of extending the road capacity. If there still congestion on given route, this just will mean its still has not enough capacity. Its a logical fallacy saying "we've extended it once/twice/etc, it still congested => however much we extend it, it will stay congested forever". Also, a lot of roads are congested not because everybody wants to use particular route, but because of poor planning and lack of proper network of alternates.On the roads, we build new ones and then more people drive on them, thus we are no better off than we were before.
That was EXACTLY my point. So many residents of West Yorkshire commute on a daily basis to the Greater Manchester area that I think it's a reasonable suggestion to make that a not dis-similar number must do the journey in the opposite direction. Making a slightly silly extrapolation, but if the trend were to carry on in the same vain, most of the population of the Leeds/Bradford area would be commuting to Manchester and most of the population of Greater Manchester will end up commuting to Leeds, or Bradford or Kirklees.] On the roads, we build new ones and then more people drive on them, thus we are no better off than we were before.
I beg you to differ The Beard, its elementary because England is horribly lagging behind in keeping its road capacity in line with demand. You saying that billions were spent? They were splendidly wastefully spent then, because actual total road capacity improved at miniscule amounts (at least according to statistics) - since certain point in time (after original network was built). Vast majority of that money later went to "widening", "controlled motorways", "let make roundabouts from all crossings" or "lets take this road, narrow down the lanes to squeeze 3 instead of 2 and rename it to motorway" - all ways to declare that we "improve" things without doing the core thing - building new roads.Despite the M60 now being a complete ring road, the A1 becoming a motorway and now being able to get there without driving through Leeds, it still takes two hours! How is that possible? Elementary my dear Ingvarr, there are more vehicles driving on it.
That was EXACTLY my point. So many residents of West Yorkshire commute on a daily basis to the Greater Manchester area that I think it's a reasonable suggestion to make that a not dis-similar number must do the journey in the opposite direction. Making a slightly silly extrapolation, but if the trend were to carry on in the same vain, most of the population of the Leeds/Bradford area would be commuting to Manchester and most of the population of Greater Manchester will end up commuting to Leeds, or Bradford or Kirklees.On the roads, we build new ones and then more people drive on them, thus we are no better off than we were before.
Before the M62 (and others) was built most people worked within a 15 mile radius of where they lived because there was no quick and reliable way of commuting long distances. As motorway expansion has continued more and more choose to make longer journeys for work, but the longer they do the job the worse the traffic becomes. A friend of Mrs. Beard jumps in her company Insignia and drives/crawls the 30 mile (plus) journey from Rossendale to Leeds every day. Another friend drives his BMW 520 from near Stockport to Preston 5 days a week. There are only two things that connect both of those people and that is a Motorway between where they live and where they work; and they each have a car provided by their employer and a fuel card to go with it. Neither would have thought for a moment about taking those jobs (promotion in each case) if there hadn't been a car and fuel supply thrown into the deal.
I can't remember meeting anyone who said: "Do you know what? I really look forward to spending an hour (or more) sitting in a queue of traffic getting more and more stressed over whether I'll get to work on time." or "It's nearly six, oh yeah, I look forward to standing traffic every night."
Mrs. Beard fell into a similar trap about 10 years ago. Firm's car, All Star fuel card and every night she'd come home with a headache after the Manchester to Stoke to Manchester grind. She gave herself 12 months and found a job closer to home. She's never regretted it once.
It's bit like the housing market. If the supply is ongoing then the demand will keep rising to meet it, until something happens to put a brake on the demand such as a mortgage rate rise or rising unemployment. If petrol/diesel prices keep on going up, and wages stay static, perhaps that will force people to look closer to home for work, but until then I've become more and more convinced that continuing to widen motorways is simply a viscous circle and something we can ill afford in the present economic climate.
The first motorway was built two years after I was born. Since then we seem to have gone past the point whereby motorways became useful and are now well into a fait accompli, namely, we've given birth to a Frankenstein and we can't kill it now because it's become too big. When I first started using the M62/A1 to get to my then girlfriend's family in the North East the journey took two hours. Despite the M60 now being a complete ring road, the A1 becoming a motorway and now being able to get there without driving through Leeds, it still takes two hours! How is that possible? Elementary my dear Ingvarr, there are more vehicles driving on it. So after hundreds of millions, if not billions, of pounds being spent on improving the road network my journey is no quicker than it was in 1985! In 27 years I now have to travel further and the journey time is the same.
I'm falling more and more in line with Chris Rea's thinking, if this carries on we really will be on the Road to Hell.
I'd be the last person to say that Britain's motorway system is perfect, and I also can't claim to be an expert on European motorways either. I have driven quite extensively on the French Autoroutes as well as some Italian Autostrade and despite being an Italophile, I have to say that they are pretty atrocious in comparison with British ones, in terms of surface, junction layout and service areas.I beg you to differ The Beard, its elementary because England is horribly lagging behind in keeping its road capacity in line with demand. You saying that billions were spent? They were splendidly wastefully spent then, because actual total road capacity improved at miniscule amounts (at least according to statistics) - since certain point in time (after original network was built). Vast majority of that money later went to "widening", "controlled motorways", "let make roundabouts from all crossings" or "lets take this road, narrow down the lanes to squeeze 3 instead of 2 and rename it to motorway" - all ways to declare that we "improve" things without doing the core thing - building new roads.
That not to small amount thankful to "Road Protest" - what a wonderful English invention.
Try sometimes visiting a country which has not adopted the luddite approach in respect to cars, and you will see that it totally possible to solve this "imposible to build enough roads" problem you try to present.
And some people don't know, but M25 would be a lot less "road to hell" if the proper original plan of system of several orbital roads and river crossings would actually be able to be completed - without people rioting.