Technical One leaking push rod tube!

[plantpot50]

Engine back on the road after a rebuild, but I have a leak from what appears to be just on the central push rod tube. First picture is after a 20 mile run yesterday, 2nd picture cleaned up and 3rd picture after a 4 mile drive this morning.
Is it possible to try cleaning off and sealing this with a smear of permatex around the top of the tube, or will it need the head removing and a new seal? It obviously had new seals during its rebuild.
Thanks in advance

 

[fiat500]

Engine back on the road after a rebuild, but I have a leak from what appears to be just on the central push rod tube. First picture is after a 20 mile run yesterday, 2nd picture cleaned up and 3rd picture after a 4 mile drive this morning.
Is it possible to try cleaning off and sealing this with a smear of permatex around the top of the tube, or will it need the head removing and a new seal? It obviously had new seals during its rebuild.
Thanks in advance

You can but try; I think there's a more than 50% chance that it will work for a while if you thoroughly clean it first.

 

[Bounding Bambino]

If you are going to attempt to seal it with the head still attached, its is going to be hard to get a good clean surface before applying some sealant. A liberal coating of brake cleaner, and blowing out any residue will help with getting a clean surface.

One thing i did noticed is that some of the tubes seem "inconsistent", the 2nd tube from the flywheel doesn't look to have the same pressure on the o-ring as the others. Unfortunately this is one of the issue when using or "re"-using the original style "accordion" pushrod tubes. Typically the fiat panda heads had a 2 part pushrod tube, which ive heard is hard to find replacements. Using the one pc like you have is fine also, however the head has to come completely off to remove them. Vs, loosening the head and swapping tubes out.

If you want a permanent fix, i would strongly suggest either the spring loaded, or threaded type pushrod tubes. If your going to likely have to take the head off, i would do the upgrade sadly.

Also, if you want to make your life easier in the future, i would notch out the bottom half of the panda 30 head cowling so you can swap out tubes or o-rings in the future without having the remove the head when using the aftermarket "performance" style tubes.

 

[the hobbler]

If you are going to attempt to seal it with the head still attached, its is going to be hard to get a good clean surface before applying some sealant. A liberal coating of brake cleaner, and blowing out any residue will help with getting a clean surface.

One thing i did noticed is that some of the tubes seem "inconsistent", the 2nd tube from the flywheel doesn't look to have the same pressure on the o-ring as the others. Unfortunately this is one of the issue when using or "re"-using the original style "accordion" pushrod tubes. Typically the fiat panda heads had a 2 part pushrod tube, which ive heard is hard to find replacements. Using the one pc like you have is fine also, however the head has to come completely off to remove them. Vs, loosening the head and swapping tubes out.

If you want a permanent fix, i would strongly suggest either the spring loaded, or threaded type pushrod tubes. If your going to likely have to take the head off, i would do the upgrade sadly.

Also, if you want to make your life easier in the future, i would notch out the bottom half of the panda 30 head cowling so you can swap out tubes or o-rings in the future without having the remove the head when using the aftermarket "performance" style tubes.

One of the problems with the Panda30 cylinder head is that it uses 2-part push-rod tubes, and the lower (and longer) tubes are just about impossible to find and buy. I have fitted a Panda30 head to the '695SS' engine that I am building, but it came only with the 'top' tubes---the ones that go between the the top of the head and a lower 'deck'. There are a number of ways around this problem. (1) NANNI RICAMBI now list spring-loaded push-rod tubes for the Panda30 (part number 0387S). I have recently purchased a set of the these tubes (mainly because they have a sale on at the moment) but I cannot discern any measurement difference between 'normal' spring-loaded push-rod tubes and the Nanni items, although their invoice DOES indicate that the correct parts were invoiced. I will concede that the 'normal' spring-loaded tubes that I compared the Nanni items with were bought from a different supplier. (2) Use VW 2-part adjustable push-rod tubes. I am using these tubes on my engine (the Nanni items were not available when I started building my engine) but the push-rod tube apertures on the 'lower deck' have to be opened up to allow the VW tubes to pass through, and the webs between the 'lower' deck and the top of the head have to be relieved to allow the adjusting nuts (on the tubes) to be turned. (3) As suggested by Jacques (Bouncing Bambino), cut away the outer edge of the lower apertures to allow the fitment of 'normal' spring-loaded push-rod tubes. I must admit, I hadn't thought of such a drastic option so can't give an opinion as to how successful this would be, or how much metal needs to be removed.
Which ever option is decided upon, one has to give thought as to what seals are to be used. My decision was to remove the old, dry and hard original seal rings in the top tube apertures in the head and fit slightly oversize, modern 'O' rings. I then had a slight chamfer put onto the top of the push-rod tube so that with a smidge of rubber grease on the 'O' rings, the tube could be (firmly!) pushed through the 'O' rings which would then be a tight fit. I also used a 'normal' silicon push-rod tube seal between the push-rod tube and the underside of the top tube aperture. BUT BEWARE, which ever push-rod tube option that you use, the under-side edge of the top push-rod tube aperture needs to be chamfered. If this is not done, the pressure of the push-rod tube pushing the seal up against the sharp edge of the top aperture will split the seal--this will (a) possibly allow the tube to leak at the top and (b) loosen the tube as the spit seal will break away, thus effectively reducing the length of the tube. I had to think hard as to how to chamfer the underside of the top aperture ( I don't have access to a lathe or a milling machine) and eventually, after a couple "not very good ideas", came up with a simple tool. I have never been successful in putting any pictures onto the Forum, so will send a couple of pictures of my tool to Jacques and ask him to kindly put them onto the forum, OR contact me direct ([email protected]) and I will send to any one who wants them, the pictures and a decription of the tool and how I used it. Lastly, and it again doesn't matter which option you use, the very top of the push-rod tube needs to have some small grooves (4) put into it so that, as per factory 'concertina tubes, oil can drain from the rocker-chamber back down the push-rods.

 

[plantpot50]

One of the problems with the Panda30 cylinder head is that it uses 2-part push-rod tubes, and the lower (and longer) tubes are just about impossible to find and buy. I have fitted a Panda30 head to the '695SS' engine that I am building, but it came only with the 'top' tubes---the ones that go between the the top of the head and a lower 'deck'. There are a number of ways around this problem. (1) NANNI RICAMBI now list spring-loaded push-rod tubes for the Panda30 (part number 0387S). I have recently purchased a set of the these tubes (mainly because they have a sale on at the moment) but I cannot discern any measurement difference between 'normal' spring-loaded push-rod tubes and the Nanni items, although their invoice DOES indicate that the correct parts were invoiced. I will concede that the 'normal' spring-loaded tubes that I compared the Nanni items with were bought from a different supplier. (2) Use VW 2-part adjustable push-rod tubes. I am using these tubes on my engine (the Nanni items were not available when I started building my engine) but the push-rod tube apertures on the 'lower deck' have to be opened up to allow the VW tubes to pass through, and the webs between the 'lower' deck and the top of the head have to be relieved to allow the adjusting nuts (on the tubes) to be turned. (3) As suggested by Jacques (Bouncing Bambino), cut away the outer edge of the lower apertures to allow the fitment of 'normal' spring-loaded push-rod tubes. I must admit, I hadn't thought of such a drastic option so can't give an opinion as to how successful this would be, or how much metal needs to be removed.
Which ever option is decided upon, one has to give thought as to what seals are to be used. My decision was to remove the old, dry and hard original seal rings in the top tube apertures in the head and fit slightly oversize, modern 'O' rings. I then had a slight chamfer put onto the top of the push-rod tube so that with a smidge of rubber grease on the 'O' rings, the tube could be (firmly!) pushed through the 'O' rings which would then be a tight fit. I also used a 'normal' silicon push-rod tube seal between the push-rod tube and the underside of the top tube aperture. BUT BEWARE, which ever push-rod tube option that you use, the under-side edge of the top push-rod tube aperture needs to be chamfered. If this is not done, the pressure of the push-rod tube pushing the seal up against the sharp edge of the top aperture will split the seal--this will (a) possibly allow the tube to leak at the top and (b) loosen the tube as the spit seal will break away, thus effectively reducing the length of the tube. I had to think hard as to how to chamfer the underside of the top aperture ( I don't have access to a lathe or a milling machine) and eventually, after a couple "not very good ideas", came up with a simple tool. I have never been successful in putting any pictures onto the Forum, so will send a couple of pictures of my tool to Jacques and ask him to kindly put them onto the forum, OR contact me direct ([email protected]) and I will send to any one who wants them, the pictures and a decription of the tool and how I used it. Lastly, and it again doesn't matter which option you use, the very top of the push-rod tube needs to have some small grooves (4) put into it so that, as per factory 'concertina tubes, oil can drain from the rocker-chamber back down the push-rods.

Hi Tom, do you happen to have a spare cylinder head copper gasket to suit a 700cc kit tucked away in your garage? I am happy to order you a replacement or pay you for it, just trying to save time on waiting for one to arrive

 

[the hobbler]

Hi Tom, do you happen to have a spare cylinder head copper gasket to suit a 700cc kit tucked away in your garage? I am happy to order you a replacement or pay you for it, just trying to save time on waiting for one to arrive

I have a couple of spare copper head gaskets----let me know what bore you need and I will see what I have got. [email protected]

 

[plantpot50]

I have a couple of spare copper head gaskets----let me know what bore you need and I will see what I have got. [email protected]

Hi Tom, I've emailed you.

 

[Bounding Bambino]

I have some photos Tom sent over to me describing details regarding the pushrod tube reamers, along with a short description. Hope this will be of help

"
The Panda30 is unique in that the push-rod tubes used on it are 2-part----1 long (er) tube going from just above the cam-followers up to a lower' deck' which is level with the combustion chamber, where it joins with a short (er) tube going from that 'deck' up to the rocker-shaft chamber. The upper push-rod tube orifice (posh word for 'hole') has a groove machined in it, into which Fiat inserted an '0' ring. Over time, these '0' rings harden to the point that they have very little 'sealing' capability. I removed all the original '0' rings, cleaned out the slots and fitted new, slightly over-size '0' rings. I wanted to "belt and brace" the push-rod tube sealing so decided to additionally fit a normal push-rod tube '0' seal on the top of the new push-rod tubes. I am using 'VW adjustable' push-rod tubes (the Nanni Panda30 specific spring-loaded push-rod tubes weren't yet on the market when I started this conversion) which brought up another problem----they were too big to go through the lower 'deck' push-rod tube holes (we will ignore the posh description), so they had to be opened up to allow for the use of the VW tubes. With this achieved, another 'fly in the ointment' appeared---the underside of the top push-rod tube holes had a sharp edge. Over time, this would cut through the seal at the top of the push-rod tube, causing it to leak and probably also cause the push-rod tube to become loose due to the splitting of the seal. The answer was to, somehow, chamfer the lower edge of the push-rod tube hole, but how? With no milling facility available, the "little grey cells" had to be put into gear, and in the end , the answer was very simple---MAKE a 2-part chamfer tool! It had to be 2-part because the actual 'chamfering' part of the tool would be too large to go through the lower 'deck's' push-rod tube hole.

The pictures attached show the very simple tool that I eventually came up with (admittedly after a couple of 'mis-fires!).1 picture shows the 2 parts of the tool---a cutter and a driving shaft. the 2nd picture shows the 2 parts of the tool put together.The trick is to insert the shaft part of the tool through the lower push-rod tube hole and THEN screw the cutter onto the shaft. It just so happens that the old wheel-bolt was of just the correct pitch and size of thread to screw into the cutter. The teeth on the cutter are quite fierce, so very little pressure is required on the tool when chamfering. To this end I 'squared' the end of the shaft so that either a "tap" tool could be used or, as I used, an old wood-work brace-drill. The large black washer on the shaft of the tool is just that---a hard rubber washer, which by letting it turn in the lower 'deck' hole when chamfering the underside of the top hole, can be used to hold the tool's shaft vertical.

Before I fitted the push-rod tubes in place, I filed 4 deepish grooves on the very top of the push-rod tube to allow oil to flow back down the tubes, and not build-up in the rocker-shaft chamber.
Finally, I slightly tapered the top of the push-rod tube so that it could be fitted into the oversize '0' ring that I fitted into the slot in the top push-rod tube hole---with a smear of rubber gease on the 'o' ring, the top tube was a (VERY) firm fit in the '0' ring. Will it all work as planned? Only time will tell, but you can't say that I haven't tried!
"

 

[Bleeding Knuckles]

Hi PP, I note from your pics that your pushrod tubes are bespoke and seem to be fitted from top to bottom without any concertina. From your pics your tubes are soldered together for a fixed length, this is where any potential problem might arise. The total length of the tubes is dependant on how much distance there is between the spigot area and the top fitting on the head, if the head has been 'worked on' standard tubes won't fit properly because they will be too long and will crush the concertina area (and the seals) overly or prevent the head from being torqued down without damage. Due to your tubes being 'fitted' at a known length I would council you to replace the top seal of the leaking tube at least and check for any damage to the old one as a clue. I have personally gone down the route of using VW adjustable tubes that need modding on one engine and a complete set of original Panda 30 tubes on another, and the only ones that don't leak are the Panda items.
Ian.

 

[wingless]

OT, the three OP images show a banjo bolt and a pressure fluid hose attached to the engine block, between the center pushrod sleeve (rocker oil feed) and the distributor.

My engine does not have that fitting or hose. It instead has a plug. My engine has a similar plug on the block near the timing gear.

Is that for an external oil cooler? If so, is it as simple as replacing the plugs with fittings, or is a pump also required?

Is there a link showing that upgrade?

Thanks in advance.

 

[the hobbler]

OT, the three OP images show a banjo bolt and a pressure fluid hose attached to the engine block, between the center pushrod sleeve (rocker oil feed) and the distributor.

My engine does not have that fitting or hose. It instead has a plug. My engine has a similar plug on the block near the timing gear.

Is that for an external oil cooler? If so, is it as simple as replacing the plugs with fittings, or is a pump also required?

Is there a link showing that upgrade?

Thanks in advance.

The plug that you have on your engine is standard----there are a number around the engine and they are part of the casting /machining process. The 'banjo' union you have seen on the pictures is (I assume) for an oil-cooler take-off as there is an oil gallery just behing that plug. I have never seen this position for a 'take-off'---normally itis on the front of the crankcase, just by the joint between the crankcase and the timing-chain cover (at about '2.00 o'clock' as you look at the engine from the rear of the car).There is no other pump required, the 2nd oil-cooler take-off is normally on the front of the timing-chain cover, into the oil-pump.There is a modification required on the camshaft end.

 

[plantpot50]

So I opted for the permatex option before going down the route of removing the cylinder head to replace the tube seals. I ran a small bead to the base of the tubes and left to cure for 2 days. 50 miles covered over the weekend and a visit to a car show, some of those miles were quite spirited to put it to the test - happy to say that so far it has done the job! No more leaks on the tubes.
Not sure how this will fair as a permanent fix, but so far, so good
Now I need to address the small drip from the oil cooler banjo bolt off the sump
Also- huge thank you to Tom, who supplied me with a new head gasket and tube seals on Saturday, just in case I need a more permanent fix! Great to see you again

 

[fiat500]

So I opted for the permatex option before going down the route of removing the cylinder head to replace the tube seals. I ran a small bead to the base of the tubes and left to cure for 2 days. 50 miles covered over the weekend and a visit to a car show, some of those miles were quite spirited to put it to the test - happy to say that so far it has done the job! No more leaks on the tubes.
Not sure how this will fair as a permanent fix, but so far, so good
Now I need to address the small drip from the oil cooler banjo bolt off the sump
Also- huge thank you to Tom, who supplied me with a new head gasket and tube seals on Saturday, just in case I need a more permanent fix! Great to see you again

Fingers crossed.....it's very good stuff that Perma*e*x.