Technical Multipla JTD 1.9 Clutch Replacement (in progress...)

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Technical Multipla JTD 1.9 Clutch Replacement (in progress...)

Thanks. After the long stud episode, it went well. Bit of huffing and heaving to manipulate the gearbox out, using my 4ft breaker bar as a lever, but the hoist was a huge help.

Input shaft bearing: Wonder if I should replace it anyway, I've bought the bearing...

Pics: I've saved all the old bits, they're taking pride of place, with the gearbox - completely sh*t up - in the middle of my living room which is at present like a makeshift garage, might even frame the bits - it's my first clutch job you know - so I'll post pics later.

Anyway I'm not even halfway to completion yet, but hopefully the hardest part is over.

Bye for now.
 
Step by step instructions if you go ahead with the input shaft bearing replacement will be great.
I really struggled to get my gearbox apart and managed to make a mess of the bell housing getting it apart. So I ended up takingva chance and just putting in another gearbox! Now I have a cardboard box full of jtd gearbox!
Good luck and well done
 
Some pics as requested. In order:

- Top stud removal
- DIY lifting/shifting device (the device didn't require the rope after all)
- Gearbox nearly out (box rotated anticlockwise to avoid subframe)
- Gearbox (note snazzy designer carrying handle...)
- Release bearing (Ah, so that's why I couldn't change gear...!)
- New LUK release bearing
- Clutch fingers (more wear on left side)
- Clutch plate wear (notice cracks in surface)
 

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Progress Today... good news and bad news:

- Removed Valeo DMF
- Ordered rear crankshaft oil seal
- Cleaned up clutch cover bolts
- Tested lowering front subframe

Removed Valeo DMF: Notes for Novices Section 35 Remove and replace the dual mass flywheel...: To lock the flywheel I followed the N4N suggestion to use the lifting eye detached from the front of the gearbox when the front mount was removed. I pushed an M8 bolt through one of the eyes and then screwed the bolt into one of the clutch cover bolt holes. I pushed the handle of an old spark plug socket through the other eye and into one of the engine mounting holes to lock the flywheel (See pics below).

It required some force to crack the DMF bolts which were easy once started. One warning: When you get to this point the engine will be supported by a jack under the sump. Due to the force I was using to undo the DMF bolts, the scissor jack under the sump began to move out of position and would have fallen over eventually. I caught it in time and levelled the jack. So be mindful of the engine jack as you're undoing the DMF bolts.

Unfortunately, once I'd removed the flywheel, I could see that there was oil on and below the rear crankshaft cover which had obviously come through the rear crankshaft oil seal (See pics). To replace the rear crankshaft oil seal it is exactly the procedure I am following to do the clutch and flywheel, so it's a no-brainer to do the seal at the same time.

I almost forgot to mention that the DMF seems OK. I tried the 2 tests suggested by Valeo mentioned in my previous post, and the DMF passed both. I've already bought an LUK DMF and clutch kit which I intend to install, so I'll maybe flog the old Valeo DMF. Any takers?

Ordered rear crankshaft oil seal: I tried Fiat first: £77. I then tried Ebay: £37 inc next day delivery. The part number is the same as stated in the parts list at the end of Notes for Novices. For fun I also asked Fiat for the price of hub-to-strut bolts and nuts: £3-79 per bolt, min pack of 5?, and the nuts: £7-50 each! WOTTTTTTTTTTTT! At that price I think I'll file down a solid block of steel into 4 nuts with a nail file. It'll be less painful.

Cleaned up clutch cover bolts: Got my drill and wire brush attachment out to clean the old thread sealant etc. off the bolts. They're now lovely and shiny, like new. It is OK to reuse them by the way.

Tested lowering front subframe: Notes for Novices Section 32 Lower front subframe: I decided to make life easier when I eventually reinstall the gearbox, by trying to lower the front subframe a bit more. I don't know why I was so averse to doing it, there's nothing complicated or tricky about it. To get the gearbox out previously, I had loosened the 3 NS front subframe bolts to drop the subframe 1cm.

To drop the subframe further Today I loosened the 3 OS subframe bolts about 1/2" (12mm), and loosened the 2 x 15mm steering rack bolts in the middle of the car. Note: Notes for Novices states that there are 4 x 15mm bolts securing the steering rack to the subframe, I could find only 2! I supported the front crossbeam with one of my Fiat scissor jacks, then undid completely all 3 bolts holding up the NS subframe, but then loosely screwed the longer bolt from the front of the subframe into one of the bolt holes at the NS end of the crossbeam. I then slowly lowered the Fiat jack to drop the crossbeam and NS front subframe as far as I dared. I managed to drop the subframe nearly 4cm, 3cm lower than when I took out the gearbox. I think the extra clearance will make a big difference when I come to reinstall the gearbox (See pics).

For the above exercise I thought that the Fiat jack was a big improvement over a trolley jack which I tried using first. The Fiat jack doesn't wobble around on wheels, and it's height and the height of the object it is supporting can be finely adjusted up or down, which is very difficult to do with a trolley jack, particularly when lowering. I also found that I could easily raise and lower the crossbeam and subframe just by turning the adjustment wheel on the jack - no jack handle required (see pic).

PS. Does anyone know how to replace the rear crankshaft oil seal on a Multipla? I have removed the T40 bolts securing the metal plate the seal sits in (see pic) to the engine, but the plate and seal are still stuck in place. And how do you fit the new seal and plate? I have heard talk of RTV compound...

Mark
 

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Well done so far!, what are you going to do when its finished...rear suspension...much harder...tee hee.
Seriously though, lifelong Fiat experience has taught me to definitely change the clutch cover, and I'm pretty tight. They lose a lot of clamping force during their life as they heat up, affecting gear changes as they age due to less effective operation.
My old clutch plate had quite a bit of life left in it, but it slipped when stressed due to insufficient clamping force, admittedly due to a tuning box.
I wouldnt want to remove the gearbox again in a hurry...
 
Well MultiplaAbarth, the next thing I'm going to do is put the car through it's MOT, which I couldn't do until the car was mobile again, and I've only got to the end of April before the tax runs out.

Bit of a gamble doing the clutch/flywheel vs scrapping the car because I still don't know what issues the MOT will throw up. Whatever comes up I'm hoping it won't be as difficult or expensive to do as the clutch, and I'll be able to the repairs myself. Not aware of any other serious issues, but who knows...

I think the clutch is a LOT of graft but the only really difficult bit so far has been manoeuvring the gearbox off, and of course finding one's way around a strange car, and you need a lot of tools. Apart from that, the only other serious issue to bite me personally on the a** has been safety because of the very unlevel workspace. But with the advice of other Forumers I think I've sorted that. The car appears very solid jacked up, supported and double-chocked, so I'm now more confident getting under the car (quite like it actually) vs very nervous when I first started the job. It's a long time since I did anything as big on a car, so I'm slowly getting my amateur backstreet mechanic head back on. And my 25 year old Draper 1/2" drive socket set is still going strong... but I didn't realise there wasn't a bl**dy 20mm socket in the set, or an 18mm, or a 21mm, or a 15mm... should I go on?

Mark
 
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Good job, I say, clutch is a big job on a multi, but depends on how old it is and how corroded the bolts are.. I've had 3 multis now, they are amazing cars for lots of reasons. At least they have a "bit" of space to work on.
Only finished my clutch a month ago, and only just got the gearchange right, ie after many fluid bleeding jobs it reverted to hard to get gears and crunching 1st and reverse within a few days.
I eventually changed the master cylinder internals transplanted from a new one, and a new slave cylinder. I've also discovered that my clutch fork is very loose, so its either bent broken or needs new top/bottom bushes...
So in other word, I will probably be removing the gearbox again sometime soon...but at least it will be a lot quicker this time :eek:
Good luck with the MOT bra!
 
PS. Does anyone know how to replace the rear crankshaft oil seal on a Multipla? I have removed the T40 bolts securing the metal plate the seal sits in (see pic) to the engine, but the plate and seal are still stuck in place. And how do you fit the new seal and plate? I have heard talk of RTV compound...

No problem. I can answer my own question... I rang Fiat and they said the seal assembly just pulls off once the bolts are removed. Needs a little gentle prizing with a little flat-bladed screwdriver or something. I will post more details when I've done the job. Have prized off the old seal, and the new one has just been delivered.

Mark
 
Hello folks,

Progress Today:

- Researched replacement of rear crankshaft oil seal
- Enlisted support to reinstall the gearbox/clutch
- Removed rear crankshaft oil seal

Researched replacement of rear crankshaft oil seal: I rang my local Fiat garage who told me that the rear oil seal just pulls off. A small flat-bladed screwdriver and gentle prizing achieved removal. However, I noticed that the old seal was sealed on the bottom edge with a black rubber type substance. Research on the 'net suggested RTV = Room Temperature Vulcanizing silcone. I contacted my local partstealer who understood RTV and suggested "Carplan powerbond Universal Silicone sealer (Black)". I had already bought general purpose silicone sealant for the gearbox input shaft bearing, but the difference with the Carplan sealer is that it "withstands temperatures to +260C". I have never exposed the general purpose silicone sealant around my bath to more than 100C except when I was bathing my pet lobster - or so he thought! ;-) - so I am assuming the Carplan stuff is more appropriate for the job. Adds another £4 to the job, but hey that's £4 vs £300 for a subsequent oil seal repair job. I would hate to spoil my ship (car) for a ha'porth of tar (RTV).

Enlisted support to reinstall the gearbox/clutch: I rang my local garage who "repaired" my now flat car tyre to ask if he would (paid) help me in the final stage of reconnecting the gearbox to the engine. He wimped out saying that he might hurt his back working on a street. However, he did give some new clutch advice: 1) Check that you have the correct clutch plate by checking that it fits on the gearbox input shaft (Done: Yes it does), and 2) Apply the bare minimum of grease on the input shaft splines (Will do). And he also gave me the number of a mobile mechanic to assist in the gearbox refitting (rang him and he's awaiting my phone call - £15).

Removed rear crankshaft oil seal: I had a short evening scraping off the old sealant from the rear crankshaft seal mount and cleaning up the crankshaft rear pulley. I used a cut up old credit card-sized plastic card, a piece of plastic scouring pad, turps substitute, Wilkos wipes and lint-free cloths. It's quite cold this evening, so I will wait till tomorrow when it's warmer to install the new seal, assuming that a higher temperature will aid the sealant curing process.

Mark
 

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While it's off and you have Rtv sealant
I'd remove gearbox end cover,
clean out the cover and refit
It'll not hurt to do so and it'll prevent any 4th gear issues in the future
 
Maybe also remove the gear selector pin rubber cover
(On the top near the back of the box)
Clean the fork and inspect for cracking
Ours must have cracked before it snapped
Not wanting to tempt fate but I'd imagine you'll be a little miffed if you do the clutch
Chuck it all back together and then the arm snaps
 
Progress Today...

- Removed and cleaned clutch lever and fork
- Welded worn areas of clutch fork
- Installed rear crankshaft oil seal - disaster!
- Rear crankshaft oil seal - disaster averted

Removed and cleaned clutch lever and fork: I began the day by removing the clutch lever and fork from the bellhousing. They are held in place by a single circlip holding the clutch lever onto the top of the clutch fork shaft. Lacking circlip pliers I removed the circlip using one screwdriver to hold one end of the circlip in place, and another smaller screwdriver to prize off the other end of the circlip. Before detaching the clutch lever from the shaft, I marked their positions relative to each other with a marker pen, but discovered on disassembly that this was unnecessary as a deliberate missing spline on the shaft and clutch lever guarantees correct fitting of the lever relative to the shaft.

After removing the gunk on the lever, shaft, fork arms and bearings I examined these components for wear:

Lever: Shows no noticable signs of wear.

Shaft: Half of the circumference of the top and bottom of the fork shaft, obviously the areas receiving the most force, have been worn smooth.

Fork arms: The projections on the end of the two arms which contact and push the release bearing have worn unevenly. On the top surface of the top arm in the elbow nearest the projection on the end, the metal has worn away leaving a pronounced hollow maybe 0.5mm deep.

Bearings: Both top and bottom clutch fork bearings appear to be made of a bronze coloured metal. Top bearing: the top half of the outer surface is quite worn with metal worn away around nearly the full circumference of the bearing, to a maximum depth of about 0.5mm (there is a clear 'step' between the worn and unworn areas). Bottom bearing: one half of the outer surface is worn smooth, and one half of the inner surface is worn away to a maximum depth of about 0.25mm. (The replacement bearings, by the way, are made of plastic).

To throw my hat in the ring, I would bet a pound to a penny that uneven wear of the clutch fingers is caused by wear in some or all of the clutch fork components.

Welded worn areas of clutch fork: Because a new clutch fork costs £80 I had the bright idea to get a welder in my local town to weld up/replace the missing metal in the worn areas of the clutch fork. Left the fork with him to pick up later and went home.

Installed rear crankshaft oil seal - disaster!: After spending a long time yesterday cleaning up the area on the engine that would receive the rear crankshaft oil seal, Today I set about installing the oil seal. First I cleaned the 7 x T40 bolts (2 long, 5 short), then applied thread sealant. The instructions said to leave to cure for 5 mins. I was expecting the compound to solidify, but nothing happened. Thinking that the cold day might be preventing curing I placed the bolts on a radiator for a while, to no effect. I then rang Granville Industries who informed me that the sealant cures in the absence of air, ie. when the parts have been installed. The opposite to my understanding of the confusing instructions. So, I squirted some black RTV on the area of the engine block which receives the base of the oil seal metal plate, installed the oil seal, and began installing and tightening the T40 bolts. Here's where things came unstuck... Because the bolt heads were T40's I assumed that they needed the same torque setting as the clutch cover bolts which are also T40. What I forgot was that the clutch cover bolts are M8 and the oil seal bolts are M6 - much smaller diameter bolts... So I set my torque wrench to 28Nm (the correct setting for the clutch cover bolts) and began tightening. After the bolts were quite tight I couldn't understand why I wasn't getting a click from my wrench. So I dialed the torque setting down to 20Nm and continued. The first bolt I tried produced a healthy click. When I started on the second bolt... the head snapped off leaving the remainder of the bolt fully embedded below the surface of the engine block. OH NOOOOOO! ****** $$$$$$ @@@@@ etc. My heart sank.

I had a quick scan on YouTube for techniques to remove a bolt without a head. Not a chance of me doing any of them. Feeling like a deflated balloon - or should that be baffoon - I travelled into my local town to pick up my welded clutch fork.

I asked several partstealers how to remove a broken bolt and they all said "screw extractors" - but the extractors were all too big, and I had no chance of drilling a large enough hole in the stuck bolt with my low powered battery drill.

Rear crankshaft oil seal - disaster averted: I picked up my welded clutch fork, and asked the welder if he knew how to extract the bolt. This is what he suggested: get hold of a centre punch and punch a small indentation on one side of the top of the stuck bolt. Place the tip of the centre punch in the indentation, and gently tap in an anticlockwise direction to turn the bolt. So I bought a punch (£4) and went home feeling very sceptical. I tried what he said, deepening the indentation with a tiny 0.5mm HSS drill. Then I began to tap the bolt... unbelievably it worked. The bolt turned very slowly, after a while there was enough of the bolt exposed above the surface for me to grab it with my fingers and undo it the rest of the way by hand. I could not believe it ! I thought I was sunk, then I was back afloat again.

I have bought replacements (M6 5mm Allen key heads) for the M6 T40 bolts in case the original bolts are stretched/weakened (£1 for 5 plus washers).

Regarding the clutch fork - I see no reason why, if the wear is similar to my fork, the fork couldn't be welded up good as new instead of buying a replacement. Unfortunately, after welding, the elbow of the top clutch fork arm is still short of metal offering a jerky ride for the release bearing. What to do? Should I file away more metal, smoothing the indentation, or wait until next Tuesday (it's Easter Weekend) to get the job done properly? Or bite the bullet and spend another £80 on a new clutch fork?

Mark
 
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I hate it when bolt heads drop off, major depression..
Good fix to remove the bolt, will use if it ever happens again, touch wood not.
Thanks for the info on the top and bottom bearings, I've actually ordered those two bushes already from shop4parts, £10 total, ready for the next teardown...
Clutch fork, not sure about buying new, £80 seems awfull expensive for a rod and a couple of welded flaps, bit of a toss up really, will your original one work ok ish untill the whole car conks out?...There must be cheaper shafts somewhere, havent seen them though..
My g/fs Multi that I did the clutch job on a month ago is still shifting fine, but when I changed the slave cylinder recently I noticed the clutch shaft was very loose at the bottom end especially, hence why I've bought new bushes....(y)
 
Hello,

Rear crankshaft oil seal: Yesterday I carefully installing the rear crankshaft oil seal with new T40 bolts. Smeared some new engine oil round the rim of the seal to aid fitting.

Clutch fork: Still debating whether to weld up or buy new. The expression "Don't put new wine into old wine skins" comes to mind. Take the hit financially and install ALL new clutch parts, or install all new except for the fork? But it's also the wait time to receive the new fork. The car tax runs out in just over a week, I would have to SORN the car somewhere.

Note: The fork shaft ends which fit into the bearings/bushes are not too worn down, just worn smooth. It looks like the bearings/bushes receive most of the hammer not the fork shaft.

Pics below (NB. wear is clearer in enlarged pics):

- Wear/hollow in elbow of top arm
- Uneven wear on the fork arm ends
- Wear on outside of fork top bearing/bush (clear 'step' between worn and unworn sections)
- Wear on inside of fork bottom bearing/bush
- New rear crankshaft oil seal installed
 

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While it's off and you have Rtv sealant
I'd remove gearbox end cover,
clean out the cover and refit
It'll not hurt to do so and it'll prevent any 4th gear issues in the future

Hi Ben, Thanks for the suggestion.

Question: For my benefit - I have zero knowledge about a Multipla gearbox - could you explain how cleaning the gearbox cover prevents 4th gear issues?

Mark
 
Hi Ben, Thanks for the suggestion.

Question: For my benefit - I have zero knowledge about a Multipla gearbox - could you explain how cleaning the gearbox cover prevents 4th gear issues?

Mark

There's a known issue with crud & swarf getting stuck in and around the end casing on these gearboxes. Sometimes, the bits get in the way of the selector rod movement needed to get 4th gear. The end result is that you can't get into 4th. The box was originally designed as a 4 speed; 5th was a later addition and is housed in the 'cap' on the NS end of the gearbox. This is where the sh*t collects, so removing it and cleaning it out (and the parts exposed when you remove it) usually cures the 4th gear selection problem.

Nice photos by the way. I'm surprised just how much wear there is on the outside of the top bush. Has that made the hole in the bellhousing go ovoid? Also, going back a few posts - the 'hole' through the middle of all the pressure plate fingers on the outgoing clutch looks WAY bigger than that on the new LUK item, and the wear pattern on the Valeo looks severe. Have the fingers been completely worn through and fallen off? That would explain why you thought the Valeo's fingers looked so much fatter - the thin ends have dropped off!
 
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I had zero knowledge too lol
Best way is to just tear everything apart and see how it works
But then I had too cos gear selector pin had snapped
Got to say widemouthfrog that's a cracking explanation
All the best with your clutch replacement
 
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