Technical KriTip's 1.2 16V Sei Project

[J.R Racing]

Did your car run at all before the map JR? Also I know you did it before me, I wasn't intending it to sound like it was a first

No worries, I was only joking its nice to hear your documenting it all!

The car did run without a map but at a collosal 49bhp!!! Although my ecu had previously been remapped on the 1108 which threw it out even further.

After one map the results can be seen, this was on the original 1108 ecu too, being a student its great not having to shell out for a standalone system and the car functions smoothly and quickly!

As for the power output i'm over the moon with how it drives which is all that matters, i'm not on here to please other people without sounding selfish!

Kristian like I say if you need any help pm me by all means.

 

[randomizered]

Cheers fingers99, I'll have a hunt on CC or PM if I get stuck

JR, I'm sure I'll PM you with loads of questions in the futre

Today was collection day and started, rather hungover from Friday night by doing this:



All the seats and sub came out, and the car was lined with some cartpet I took from a skip the previous night on the way back from town

After a trip up to Derbyshire (1 hour drive), I arrived at Salvo Groups yard to collect my order.

This is where things got complicated. I was after as listed above, but when I came to collect, the guy showed the the engine but said even though it was mk2 it didn't have a cam sensor so was not going to be any god to me

However he said that the Bravo engine was identical, and contained the cam sensor. I did double check with him it was def a 16V and he said it was the exact same block as some mk2 Puntos and actually had better mount's than the Punto.

He seemed to know his stuff, so hopefully he's correct.

It wasn't as low milage as I was hoping for, 64K, but was lower than some other I was loking at for more money.

I got:

Brava 1.2 16V 64K enigine
1.2 16V mk1 inlet manifold and throttle body
Sei cooling hose for my engine
MPI seicento HT leads, as mine are broke and on their on their last legs
Injector clips

£350 in total, so not bad.

Here it's all in the car:



Here's my suspension, pretty much on its bump stops :







I'll get it out later and give it a clean up and check it over and maybe paint the block as well.

Now I need to buy more bits to get further

Kristian

 

[J333EVO]

I have had a convo with someone who uses there mapping stuff with regards to Chipped UK, seems they are using software that is not working, seems odd to me considering I have seen these types of plots from as far back as middle of last year to now, why does it take so long to fix software issues There mapping work does seem to be pretty good, but theres plots seem to be ones that give owners a smile rather than giving all the facts.

I know what a genuine 100bhp 100lbsft torque in one of these cars feels like as well; I also know what a proper quick car feels like.

No one is trying to put down other peoples work but look for answers to questions, it really is that simple. And just because some magazine uses there facilities does not mean they are good, I also know of another big mag that use a company r/r facility not far from me, yet in teh industry there acronym name is changed to some much less complimentary


Lets get one thing straight, you will NEVER loss over 40% through transmission on a FWD car. We measuered the engine movement on Emmas turbo cars and it moved back 25mm under load, but then thats does have over 120ftlbs at 3100rpm, so there is not a chance in hell of N/A Cinq engine moving more than that unless the mounts were broken, which they would not have been as I have broken a mount and the engine drops about 60mm There was no change to the trasnmisson loses even with so much movement.

18% is thumb rule on FWD car tho MINI Coopers are very good and only loose 12%, RWD about 20% and 4WD IIRC about 25-30%.

Everyone works on a budget, doesn't matter if its a small budget or a big one its still all a budget

 

[randomizered]

Didn't do much yesterday other than got it out the car and a little bit of work.

The block is a bit rusty, but the head and section below the block are alloy, so not too bad.

It does say 16V and the block, so it's not the junk 12V engine that I was worrying about.

I have removed all the wiring other than the cam sensor, to stop rubbish falling in. I took off the cam covers as well, removed all of the stuff that is no use like the power steering pump and belt. and am now left with the following:

The Mk1 TB and manifold, check fit and it's fine :



Stuff I can chuck :



Various shots of the engine, I could really do with a proper engine stand :









Well that's it for at least Wednesday now, before I can carry on, but I will have time to buy a few more bits I need, and hopefully clean the rust and paint the block


Cheers,

Kristian

ps. from now on I'll make sure I use a decent camera and not my rubbish phone lol

 

[davethetrike]

Good start, I hope your garage is warm
Is that cable throttle or fly by wire?

Are you planning on stripping the engine?
My mk1 16v was 61k - with a blown head gasket. Might be worth a peek to check?

 

[randomizered]

Yeah, I decided to take the cam cover off, and also to do the timing belt, so I figure I may as well do the HG, I have done it twice on my current car and shouldn't take to long. I'll probably do that next weekend.

If i'm going that far though, I may be tempted to strip it down all the way for a good inspection. Would be interesting to see it all, and i could check the pistons, cylinders, and replace the dented sump if i feel in the mood (its only cosmetic)

Knowing which engine code it is or what year it was from is a pain though in knowing which parts to get

I will have to look into the cam belt change and head off a bit further though, as I have never had a DOHC apart, and think yo have to lock cam timings etc? sounds a lot more confusing.

I'm not going to bother doing the water pump or tensioner though.

Yes, the garage is big and nice and warm, so I have no worries there Its just not my garage, so week time access is limited

I have been watching your project with interest as well

Kristian


/edit forgot to say its cable operated

 

[Cinqster355]

DOHC are a piece of cake.

 

[randomizered]

Well that's ok then

Maybe I need to get a punto or bravo haynes manual!

Cheers,

Kristian

 

[bean]

looking good, cant wait to see the progress


nath

 

[J.R Racing]

Wow, progress!!

Looks good,

Regarding cam sensor there seems to be a random pattern of what cars did/didn't have them! I think my cam housing came from a stilo which was fine, I saw a brava yesterday which didn't have one and was a late car?!

Give it a damn good check all over its well worth doing normal engine change stuff like h/g, thermostat, belts etc. Should see you at least 40k trouble free motoring! Especially on an engine thats around the 60K mark has the timing belt been done? Could be dubious??

Good luck and keep us informed!

Also just a random one what induction do you have planned for it?

 

[randomizered]

Well I phoned around for cam belt and HF set and everyone seemed reluctant to supply without a year or engine code, so i guessed the code out of a possible two just to get some prices.

I went round this evening with a torch too try and find an engine code on there. Only marks on the block I could see were:

0L2E

M657

A1

When i had the torch on there though, I caught of a glimpse down the inlets

I knew the block was a bit rusty, but there is rust running down the inlets and all over the valves. Not a tiny bit, but a good coating! Is this typical of scrap yard engines, even though sold as running?

It may run, but I will surely have to remove the head now, just to find out any damage.

If water got down there and rust, what parts can corrode? The springs I'd imagine, the block if water went past the valves...are the valves and piston heads alloy?

What should I do now Deal with it, pull the head, and replace the damage. Ignore it and hope the oil and movement dislodges all the rust and crap, or ring the breakers about it?

Any input welcome


Kristian

 

[T.E.D. Jordan]

Pull the head and get it worked, may as well?!? BTW, the brava engine is 80 compared to the 85 of the punto i believe, is this just down to fueling as im not that familiar with the 16v 1242

Re. the flywheel or any other parts - let me know

Jordan

 

[randomizered]

Brava 1.2 16v 80 10.00 - 10.01 80 188 A5.000
Brava 1.2 16v 80 12.98 - 10.00 82 182 B2.000

So either 80bhp or 82bhp.

Punto mk1 was 85, mk2 was 80, so its similar to both really. I'm not sure of the technical differences either, or how to identify which one is which.

Over in the Bravo section, the 1.2 16V in the Bravo is the same as in the mk2/2.5 punto's.

I may pull the head, but at £60 for a new gasket set, £20 bolts, and god knows what once its off, I'm wondering if its wise

Kristian

 

[T.E.D. Jordan]

I know if it was me personally, if i was on a tight budget id pull the head and getit worked anyway, and just take into account that extra time and money will be needed, as you'll reap th benefits later, and also youd have piece of mind that your HG isnt likely to go, as you do not know the full history of the engine. for say, a couple of hundred pounds more, youd be able to make an extra 10-15bhp more easily, wth headwork and a set of fast road cams, youd be laughing, ( like this :nerner: ) lol

Jordan

 

[davethetrike]

Look through my thread 'punto supercharged' on the Punto technical forum.

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-technical/89930-punto-supercharged.html


Page one just after the bit on nos and some other stuff on page 3 iirc.
Pictures of the task and some useful stuff (comments) on special tools.

I would definitely pull the head as you wil then know its ok. As I say mine was supposedly good at 61k but it most certainly not.
The short answer is, you do not need special tools, except the ribe sockets (Halfords 29.99)

punt mk1 was 86 or 88 bhp depending on who you believe.

I would imagine the drop in power was mainly down to that rubbish manifold with its cat ...arghhhh.

Good Luck

 

[randomizered]

What size ribe bit did you use? there is a draper 7 piece for £16 delivered, or a 22 piece for £25, but if I only need one bit, I may be able to save a bit.

The cam cover bolts are hex aren't they?

I picked up a punto manual tonight so will be able to have a good read about the procedure

I will ring the scrappie tomorrow about it though and see what they say. If its not common, I may be able to get a swap for a different one

Kristian

 

[davethetrike]

What size ribe bit did you use? there is a draper 7 piece for £16 delivered, or a 22 piece for £25, but if I only need one bit, I may be able to save a bit.

The cam cover bolts are hex aren't they?

I picked up a punto manual tonight so will be able to have a good read about the procedure

I will ring the scrappie tomorrow about it though and see what they say. If its not common, I may be able to get a swap for a different one

Kristian

Cam cage also uses a ribe..... recessed. You can do it with a star + an 8mm socket on a quarter drive. That's how I undid mine until I found it was a ribe.
The access plugs are allen keys (the alloy ones on the top).

It pays you to get the slightly larger sized ribes as well as I had one slip. I simply tapped in the next size ribe up and ...hey presto it worked.
For the head Haynes recommends an allen key thats a tight fit - but thats just stupid.

Can't remember the sizes and I've loaned mine to a mate. 10mm and 8mm come to mind - 12 was (I think) too big. sorry can't help more. As you pay up think of the oner you saved on special tools.

 

[randomizered]

Cheers, your being a big help.

I just bought a 56 piece ribe/spline/hex set for £25 delivered that will give me all i need, including a hex to take the sump plug out

There is a gasket set on eBay for £30 which sounds decent, as local factor said £60 but im not 100% if its the correct one


Too sum up what you did without the lockers, you got all pistons in line, at which point the cams should be in the position to lock but weren't...then you turned it a bit more until the were but didn't bother to lock them. Did you then take the belt of and return the pistons in line after adjusting for the cams to be in line?

Did the cams not shift easily then? you found no need for them to be locked even when refitting the head and belt?

Positioned/locked cams and inline pistons is THE way to set the timing? There are no pulley marks and belt marks like on the 8v's? I couldn't see any mentioned in the haynes manual. If so, i don't really trust myself without to cam locking tools, so may have to invest.

HG set, cam belt, and locking tools are £128 from shop4parts though..ouch lol

Cheers for your help,

Kristian

 

[davethetrike]

Cheers, your being a big help.

Too sum up what you did without the lockers, you got all pistons in line, at which point the cams should be in the position to lock but weren't...then you turned it a bit more until the were but didn't bother to lock them. Did you then take the belt of and return the pistons in line after adjusting for the cams to be in line?

Did the cams not shift easily then? you found no need for them to be locked even when refitting the head and belt?

Yep shift easily and no you don't need to lock them just check the pistons are all inline then use a torch to check the notches are in the correct place. If not turn them till they are ....it won't be much.

Positioned/locked cams and inline pistons is THE way to set the timing? There are no pulley marks and belt marks like on the 8v's? I couldn't see any mentioned in the haynes manual. If so, i don't really trust myself without to cam locking tools, so may have to invest.

No timing marks at all, you simply don't need them.

Pistons in line and notches in the correct place = Job Done.

It's easy because you have the engine on the bench so you can see straight in and know its correct. I'd probably buy the lockers if I was doing this in the car. Actually, no I wouldn't because now I know what I need to see, touch, it is actually easier than trying to align timing marks from an angle, with a mirror while hanging bat like from the cam belt !

HG set, cam belt, and locking tools are £128 from shop4parts though..ouch lol

Cheers for your help,

Kristian

Helps fine, the more you and I chat about this the easier it is for the next person Oh and if you want some check/timing marks paint a few as you dismantle - have the pistons inline and the notches in the correct place - you'll immediatly see why you don't need them

 

[randomizered]

The breakers said its normal to get rust on the valve stems and valves in the manifold inlets due too moisture and it will be fine, so I'm going to take their word for it and strip it down.

As I can't do much until the weekend I just spent a load of money instead



£262.75 delivered from motorsport world. A lot cheaper than Gazelle or Fast Fiat

Its the same as the 1.4 16V project is using i think, SS part number 814401.

Its not classed as road legal as it replaces what would have been the cat, but as long as emissions are ok, I don't care I may fit a cat from the punto anyway, so as to keep the ECU happy with the two Lambda's.

There is a Bravo SS manifold, and also a Punto MK1 manifold, but these exit at funny angles to accommodate the existing systems, and have cat replacer sections as well I think, both of which I don't need.

There is one lambda hole in the manifold, for the pre-cat, and then I'll have a custom hole after the cat for the other one. OR just ignore the second one and remove it, but then I'll have a dashboard warning light on ALL the time lol.


On Thursday I'll get the HG set and bolts, so strip it down, and worry about the cam belt etc after pay day and once it starts going back together.

It's amazing how quickly the cost rise I think I kept myself in denial UNTIL I committed to it :slayer:

Kristian