General Introduction and my new 1969 500L

[the hobbler]

Your plan prior to starting the engine sounds fine. Did your engine come with a 'points' distributor? If it did, I would retain that for the initial fire-up as it is very easy (with a little test light) to 'statically' time the engine with points. With electronic timing, you will need a timing light to check, and adjust the ignition timing.
Like your plan, I always 'dry-crank' the engine prior to starting it after a re-build ---plugs out, 'king' lead disconnected from the coil, ignition on and crank until the oil-pressure warning light goes out. If your engine is still on the work-bench, may I suggest that you remove the timing cover and the top cover of the oil-pump and then pack the oil-pump with 'Vaseline' (petroleum jelly)--NOT grease, which will not be absorbed into the oil, whereas the Vaseline will. This will give the pump something to initially 'suck on' and bring the oil-pressure up quicker.

 

[Katie B]

Your plan prior to starting the engine sounds fine. Did your engine come with a 'points' distributor? If it did, I would retain that for the initial fire-up as it is very easy (with a little test light) to 'statically' time the engine with points. With electronic timing, you will need a timing light to check, and adjust the ignition timing.
Like your plan, I always 'dry-crank' the engine prior to starting it after a re-build ---plugs out, 'king' lead disconnected from the coil, ignition on and crank until the oil-pressure warning light goes out. If your engine is still on the work-bench, may I suggest that you remove the timing cover and the top cover of the oil-pump and then pack the oil-pump with 'Vaseline' (petroleum jelly)--NOT grease, which will not be absorbed into the oil, whereas the Vaseline will. This will give the pump something to initially 'suck on' and bring the oil-pressure up quicker.

Thanks! Yep it has a points distributor currently installed. We plan to do as you say and keep it for the initial set up, just in case anything was off and then we don't have to figure out if it is the engine or new dizzy causing the issue.
The engine is installed in the car. We are a little behind on post updates as it takes a while to sort out the pics and also we have just spent a month in France and are yet to update the thread with pics prior to going away.

 

[Vitesse]

Ah I see! So my lights are uk spec but the car is Italian import. Can I keep it in Italian spec and still have the indicators work? Or should I remove the relevant wire and attach it to the headlight instead?

Side light dual filament wires are yellow and black at the top and 2 x blue and black at the bottom.

The side repeater wires are blue and black (from sidelight) and black to earth

When you say “However, the separate sidelights/indicators below the headlights are constantly on when the ignition is on.” Do you know if both filaments are on? Or is it the indicator or side light filament. I assume your indicator light lenses are white? If you want to get through an MoT or for the car to be legal in the UK, I would change the lenses for orange ones, if that is the case and move the side light up to the headlight. I have seen others on this group get through an MoT successfully but I guess it’s down to individual tester and how they interpret the rules.

 

[Katie B]

When you say “However, the separate sidelights/indicators below the headlights are constantly on when the ignition is on.” Do you know if both filaments are on? Or is it the indicator or side light filament. I assume your indicator light lenses are white? If you want to get through an MoT or for the car to be legal in the UK, I would change the lenses for orange ones, if that is the case and move the side light up to the headlight. I have seen others on this group get through an MoT successfully but I guess it’s down to individual tester and how they interpret the rules.

Only the 1 filament is on. Yep the lenses are white.

 

[Vitesse]

Only the 1 filament is on. Yep the lenses are white.

Do you know which filament is on permanently? The indicator one or the side light?

 

[Katie B]

Do you know which filament is on permanently? The indicator one or the side light?

Side light. It’s the dimmer of the 2 filaments so I assume side light

 

[Vitesse]

Side light. It’s the dimmer of the 2 filaments so I assume side light

Is the green parking lights indicator on, on the dash? You haven’t got the ignition switched turned fully anti-clockwise in the parking lights position have you?

Also it’s a bit odd that the side repeaters on the wing are working on the wing but not the front indicators, as the sides are literally going to be slaved from the front indicators. I would take the bulbs out of the front indicators and check you have 12v’s that is fluctuating up and down as the flasher unit is doing its thing on the blue/black wire. Which it must have because the side repeaters are working? It’s going to be something really simple like the bulbs being in incorrectly or wrong wattage.

 

[the hobbler]

Have you got 'twin-filament' bulbs in the indicator units Katie? Although we don't need them, all the 'pattern' front indicator lights (not the side repeaters) are to the Italian pattern where they double up as side AND indicators. By fitting 'twin-filament' bulbs, the buld contacts will pick up on the 'live' bulb-carrier contact as required. Ihave run into this little (!?) quirk myself, and it took me a bit of time to sus it out.

 

[Katie B]

Thanks for the suggestions. We will have a look into it tomorrow and test as described. To answer the questions:

The ignition isn’t in the parking position.
The bulbs are twin filament. We have tested them and both filaments work.

 

[fiat500]

Did your engine come with a 'points' distributor? If it did, I would retain that for the initial fire-up as it is very easy (with a little test light) to 'statically' time the engine with points. With electronic timing, you will need a timing light to check, and adjust the ignition timing.

Whilst I agree that you should do the initial running of the engine with the distributor as supplied, there is no more need to do a timing-light check with the 123 distributor than there is with the original points distributor. If anything, were you installing a distributor from scratch, the 123 is easier because with the engine simply set at TDC you turn the distributor until its built-in LED indicates...that's all...you're done. . As with the conventional distributor, the 123 will benefit from verification with the strobe but with only the static check is more likely to be accurate across the range of dynamic timing.

Having said that, make sure the points have been cleaned with some fine sandpaper and a wipe of solvent and if all is well adjusted and in good condition the engine will not run discernibly differently with either distributor.

 

[F123C]

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Like your plan, I always 'dry-crank' the engine prior to starting it after a re-build ---plugs out, 'king' lead disconnected from the coil, ignition on and crank until the oil-pressure warning light goes out. If your engine is still on the work-bench, may I suggest that you remove the timing cover and the top cover of the oil-pump and then pack the oil-pump with 'Vaseline' (petroleum jelly)--NOT grease, which will not be absorbed into the oil, whereas the Vaseline will. This will give the pump something to initially 'suck on' and bring the oil-pressure up quicker.

No disrespect to Tom, (the hobbler)(for whom I have the greatest of :worship: :worship but I don't think I would disturb the timing cover on your professionally rebuilt engine.

If you watch old videos of engines being assembled in car factories, it's amazing how little lube is applied during assembly, they just seem to quickly throw them together, fill the sump with oil and towards the end of the assembly line, fire them up (I've never seen factory oil pumps being filled with petroleum jelly but have seen it being recommended in aftermarket workshop manuals e.g. Haynes).

With the coil lead disconnected (i.e. ignition system disabled) there is little load on the crank bearings or the piston skirts, so minimal risk of any damage being caused by spinning the engine over to prime oilways and build up oil pressure - assuming a little oil was applied to these areas during the assembly. I know some time has passed since your engine was built, but the oil applied won't have disappeared.

If I was concerned, I'd remove the oil pressure warning light sender unit (oil pressure switch on the main oil gallery on the side of the engine/crankcase) and use one of these 'oil suction guns' :-

https://www.drapertools.com/product/47812 (NOTE:- Similar suction guns are available from other sources at much lower prices, possibly circa £10)

filled with engine oil and a suitable adaptor to inject oil under a little pressure, thus priming the oil galleries, crank bearings, oil pump, centrifugal oil filter, camshaft bearings, rocker gear etc.

A suitable adaptor might be available from an industrial plumbing supply company/ commercial/truck motor factors/ or as part of a kit of adaptors supplied with an automotive oil pressure test gauge. (bring the oil pressure sender unit with you to get one with the correct thread size/pitch). Or make your own - remove the innards from an old sender unit, fit a metal pipe (sized to suit the plastic pipe of the oil suction gun) using soldering/epoxy resin. Or maybe you could just have someone hold the plastic tube firmly against the sender unit hole in the crankcase and inject some oil, (if the plastic tube fits into the crankcase hole, fit a washer and 'O' ring over the tube, applying pressure to the washer will cause the 'O' ring to form a good seal).

The above 'oil suction gun' can do both suction and pressure. It's a very useful tool to have - can be used to fill gearboxes, flush solvent through oilways, drain brake fluid from fluid reservoirs etc. lots of uses.

Talking of gearboxes - if fitting the engine and gearbox as one unit (much easier), just support the combined unit front and rear at a suitable height on some timber blocks, then roll the car back over the power unit. By leaving a space between the wood supports, you can roll a trolley jack in from the side to do the final raising of the power unit. The rear panel can be easily fitted to support the engine, you can then reach in under (if you have longish arms)(without jacking up the car) to fit the bolts that secure the gearbox support cradle if you have everything lined up.

Great attention to detail. I'm most impressed. :worship::worship:

But.....

I haven't seen any mention of any rust-proofing having been applied. :devil:

Before any trim is installed, is an ideal opportunity to spray something suitable (Waxoyl or your preference) in all box sections ,on the reverse-side of all the window/screen openings, up inside doors, engine lid/bonnet frames - anywhere you don't want rust to start/get worse (there's probably some hiding right now in some of the hidden sections :bang: ).

Tip:- some of these rust-proofing products stink (and will continue to stink for a very long time, including fragrancing your garage....) so you might consider adding a few drops of some nice fragrance/essential oil? to your chosen treatment before application. (many such treatments can continue to drip from drain holes for some time afterwards, so take appropriate action to protect your garage floor/driveway).

Hth,

Al.

 

[the hobbler]

Good, and wise, point about not disturbing the timing-chain cover off the engine Al--but at the time i made the suggestion, I was not aware that the engine had already been fitted, and I have had t/c covers off /on so many times that, to me, it isn't a 'chore' job. However now that the engine IS sitting in its smart and VERY tidy home,it is not such a simple job--point taken.
You comment about watching new engines " just being cranked back into life" from new, or after standing for a long time reminded me that when we stripped the engines at Radbourne Racing (to convert into 650s) it was not uncommon to find score marks on the very nearly new (run around mileage only) big-end shells. They had obviously been built up at the factory with a minimum of lubricant, possibly then stood for some time, until fitted to a car, and when eventually cranked into life initially had very little lubricant on the bearings. Personally, I always, on any engine that I am building up, whether it is at work or home, build them up with a 'gunge-mix' of 50% STP and 50% a thin engine oil (5/30) used liberally. BUT the residue of the made-up amount is NOT put into the engine until it is run-in, or it will never get run-in!

 

[Toshi 975]

I always use a good smear of STP on the bearings sometimes with a squirt of oil and have personally never had a problem on start up. However I rebuilt one engine for a friend and a mate rebuilt his engine using many new parts from me and both panicked on start up when the oil light did not go out immediately. In both cases I said just start the engine and allow it to warm up a little on tickover and the oils lights went out very quickly and all has been well.

 

[fiat500]

I have had t/c covers off /on so many times that, to me, it isn't a 'chore' job.

It is a bit of a job Tom; even with the engine out of the car. To get the cover off involves first removing the oil-filter cover and the crankshaft nut, pulley etc.....all a bit of a palava for a bit of Vaseline application.

I err towards Al's view on this. When I have assembled engines I actively avoid using lubricant other than a tiny smear applied by paper-towel. The reasoning being that my working conditions are not factory-quality, I am unlikely to build the engine on a time-frame less than several weeks and in the meantime oil attracts dirt and grit on my hands and engine parts. (NB. I do sometimes wash my hands between engine building sessions. ) Oil is also likely to affect my efficiency where I use threadlocking fluid on key fastenings and on the liquid gasket I use on joints. By the time the engine is activated I will have turned it by hand and on the starter so many times that if oil is going to get to the bearings at all it will have done so already.

When we take our cars out of winter storage or other long-term lie-up, surely no-one worries that the oil-pump is not going to work without being primed?

 

[Katie B]

LHD cars had their side lights in the same fitting as the indicators and had a white lens. RHD cars had the sidelight in the headlight as you have identified and had an orange lens for the indicators. I believe it is an MoT failure here because the flashing indicator has to be orange?

What colour wire is feeding the side light filament in the dual filament bulb on each side? What colour are the other wires feeding the indicator fitting?

Lights all sorted We wired the side light into the main headlight unit along with a new separate earth and I have purchased amber lenses for the indicators so all should now be legal and they work as intended (the brighter filament provides the indicator flash) . Thanks again for the help.

 

[Katie B]

With the coil lead disconnected (i.e. ignition system disabled) there is little load on the crank bearings or the piston skirts, so minimal risk of any damage being caused by spinning the engine over to prime oilways and build up oil pressure - assuming a little oil was applied to these areas during the assembly. I know some time has passed since your engine was built, but the oil applied won't have disappeared.

If I was concerned, I'd remove the oil pressure warning light sender unit (oil pressure switch on the main oil gallery on the side of the engine/crankcase) and use one of these 'oil suction guns' :-


I haven't seen any mention of any rust-proofing having been applied. :devil:

Before any trim is installed, is an ideal opportunity to spray something suitable (Waxoyl or your preference) in all box sections ,on the reverse-side of all the window/screen openings, up inside doors, engine lid/bonnet frames - anywhere you don't want rust to start/get worse (there's probably some hiding right now in some of the hidden sections :bang: ).

Tip:- some of these rust-proofing products stink (and will continue to stink for a very long time, including fragrancing your garage....) so you might consider adding a few drops of some nice fragrance/essential oil? to your chosen treatment before application. (many such treatments can continue to drip from drain holes for some time afterwards, so take appropriate action to protect your garage floor/driveway).

Hth,

Al.

Hi Al,

Thanks for the tips. At the bodyshop, the floor of the car was under sealed and the cavities were filled with cavity wax. We were also given an extra can to do the doors on assembly too.
When the assembly is complete, the underside will also be protected with Dynax UC clear coat to protect all areas where parts are attached to the body.

Cheers,

Katie

 

[Katie B]

We have got to the dry crank stage, spark and fuel are disconnected, and the oil pressure light isn’t going out. How long does it need to be turned over for before pressure is achieved?

We’ve tried 4 times with increasing time on each go. The last time being around 10 seconds. The oil is 3/4 full on the dipstick. The pressure switch is working, we have tested it.
Is it simply a case of the engine at cranking speed doesn’t achieve enough pressure? If we hook up the fuel and spark to let the engine run, will it be more likely to build pressure and allow the light to go out?

 

[fiat500]

I did this same thing today and after turning the engine long enough to get petrol pumped through on quite a few short bursts, eventually the oil-light went off briefly.

I just went out and tested the engine with the coil lead removed and the light stays on; allowing the engine to start and it immediately goes off.

I think you're good to go.

 

[the hobbler]

Admittedly I always prime the oil-pump with vaseline, but from new (I have just re-built my engine, so it was a "as new" situation), about 15 secs of continually cranking with the plugs out saw the oil-pressure light go out. From what you have described, I would have thought that, like Peter suggests, you should be OK to crank into life. All the best!

 

[Katie B]

Thanks both. We will give it a go today