Technical Horrendously stuck bolt in sump, been working on it for 3 days, any ideas?

[spleenharvester]

Fiat 500 2011 1.2 8v, sump change due to leaking gasket. I think this car has had a sump before and I have a sneaking suspicion the last guy damaged the threads on this particular bolt, and JB welded it in place or something because they didn't want to deal with it.

The procedure went relatively well until I reached this 13mm bolt. The others were quite tight but came out without too much hassle. This one... I threw my whole body weight against it with a huge breaker bar. It just would not budge. Then the head rounded off, and you know the rest. 3 days of trying every last thing people on the internet recommended and it's now resulted in the mess you see in the picture. In the process of trying to remove the head of the bolt with a dremel I also slightly grazed the back of the flywheel, which I'm hoping I will get away with.

I've accepted I need to get a pro to look but the car isn't driveable and zero mobile mechanics in my area are responding to their messages, so currently I am really SOL with this car. If anyone can think of anything I can try as a ditch attempt I'd be grateful.

 

[GettinBetter]

Difficult to see where the sump ends and the bolt starts, any more pics?
Engine still in ?

 

[steveras57]

you could try drilling it out then fitting a timesert or helicoil in the hole to recover the thread!
or try welding another bolt to the stub so you have anew head for the socket to grip! also the heat soak from the welding might help free up the stub of the bolt still in the case!

 

[spleenharvester]

Difficult to see where the sump ends and the bolt starts, any more pics?
Engine still in ?

I'll grab some more tomorrow - yeah it's getting really hard to tell because it's just such a mangled mess. Engine's still in the car yeah.

you could try drilling it out then fitting a timesert or helicoil in the hole to recover the thread!
or try welding another bolt to the stub so you have anew head for the socket to grip! also the heat soak from the welding might help free up the stub of the bolt still in the case!

There's not enough room to maneuver my combi drill into place due to the sump and the exhaust being dropped, is there any other way you can think of that would work (really bloody long drill bits?) I did try with a dremel extension but stopped as I kept hitting the mating surface

 

[varesecrazy]

So you wish to keep/ reuse the sump?

 

[spleenharvester]

So you wish to keep/ reuse the sump?

Nope sump is going in the bin, got a fresh one lined up. I'm just wary of causing further damage to the block.

 

[varesecrazy]

I am trying to picture quite how much space you have..

Approx 200mm /8 inches of sump wall

So need a 250 /10" drill length?

I wonder if hammering a 3 cm 75mm length of tube / copper pipe onto the remaining stub would guide a drill well enough to drill away the head?

 

[steveras57]

WOULD it be possible to cut the corner of the sump off so you can drop the thing this might give you more access to the stub to get it out!

 

[varesecrazy]

WOULD it be possible to cut the corner of the sump off so you can drop the thing this might give you more access to the stub to get it out!

All that debris over the oily bits though.. Last resort to me

I would try and do all the swarf generating with the sump still in place

I asked about the state of the sump.. One of mine was like a Xmas biscuits tin, you could shape it with your hands,

This one is probably still rigid..

Shame, as beating it out of the way would help

 

[John202020]

Is it safe/possible to heat it up that would be my first bet? But I can't even see the bolt now

 

[spleenharvester]

So update, I finally managed to get the bolt head off enough to remove the sump today. Two hours of hammering then used a flathead to pry the pan against the bolt head, popped off.

Problem I'm having now is that the rest of the bolt is still stuck in the block but I can't see where it actually is. There's a deformed piece of metal from the head of the bolt remaining that I can't chisel off or dremel through, but I think the thread itself is actually where the red arrow is (attached)? Do you reckon I could get away without this bolt if I'm unable to recover the threads?

I've found the seal failed on the crank side because whoever dropped the pan last time didn't remove the old sealant. Presumably the same hack who snapped the exhaust manifold stud, cut an incorrect exhaust manifold gasket to size, put on enough sealant to almost clog the pickup tube and who did god knows what to this poor bolt.

 

[steveras57]

So update, I finally managed to get the bolt head off enough to remove the sump today. Two hours of hammering then used a flathead to pry the pan against the bolt head, popped off.

Problem I'm having now is that the rest of the bolt is still stuck in the block but I can't see where it actually is. There's a deformed piece of metal from the head of the bolt remaining that I can't chisel off or dremel through, but I think the thread itself is actually where the red arrow is (attached)? Do you reckon I could get away without this bolt if I'm unable to recover the threads?

I've found the seal failed on the crank side because whoever dropped the pan last time didn't remove the old sealant. Presumably the same hack who snapped the exhaust manifold stud, cut an incorrect exhaust manifold gasket to size, put on enough sealant to almost clog the pickup tube and who did god knows what to this poor bolt.

Glad you got it off! if you already have a new sump could you not use that as a template to mark where the bolt/threads are( stick a marker pen through the hole or the like) once you know !-now you have the sump off is there any more clearance for a drill? of like i said before welding a new bolt to the stub and hoping the heat transfer loosens it up! other than that if you have got the location would it be possible to drill a new hole -oversize if needed and helicoil or timesert it back to size for a new stud!. good luck!

 

[spleenharvester]

Glad you got it off! if you already have a new sump could you not use that as a template to mark where the bolt/threads are( stick a marker pen through the hole or the like) once you know !-now you have the sump off is there any more clearance for a drill? of like i said before welding a new bolt to the stub and hoping the heat transfer loosens it up! other than that if you have got the location would it be possible to drill a new hole -oversize if needed and helicoil or timesert it back to size for a new stud!. good luck!

Ah good idea, I'll give that a try! Yeah I can get at it with a drill now but I just can't seem to get through this lump of metal. I've tried torching it with a butane torch many times but that hasn't loosened it at all. It has to have been JB welded in or something.

 

[AnthonyH]

Ah good idea, I'll give that a try! Yeah I can get at it with a drill now but I just can't seem to get through this lump of metal. I've tried torching it with a butane torch many times but that hasn't loosened it at all. It has to have been JB welded in or something.

It does look like its been welded. So I don't think you can drill out the remaining thread.

You could buy an angle grinder, the corded ones are cheap but you'll probably want a cordless one which area bout £80.

They are like a super powered dremmel, you'd be through that in no time with one of those.

 

[jrkitching]

Do you reckon I could get away without this bolt if I'm unable to recover the threads?

It's not something I'd want to do unless there were absolutely no other alternative except scrapping the car. It's one of the corner bolts; you really don't want that one to be missing.

But looking at the pictures, I don't see how you could recover that with the engine still in the car. At the very least, you'd want it on a decent 4 post lift.

 

[John202020]

What size bolt is it?
If you can see the old bolt, drill a small hole in it now grind(very carefully) flat to surrounding surface, now drill out larger try 4mm tap the hole see if a 4mm bolt will hold maybe even 5mm would this be an option vs the "correct" size, now its all about damage limitation ideally the engine would be out of the car and replacement block?

 

[varesecrazy]

What size bolt is it?
If you can see the old bolt, drill a small hole in it now grind(very carefully) flat to surrounding surface, now drill out larger try 4mm tap the hole see if a 4mm bolt will hold maybe even 5mm would this be an option vs the "correct" size, now its all about damage limitation ideally the engine would be out of the car and replacement block?

Correct in theory,

But concensus seems to say its filled with Weld, so too hard to drill...

I would try a masonry bit.. Just to test it

 

[vexorg]

Masonary still won't work, they are relatively blunt as they are designed to smash brick. A good quality 3mm or 4mm drill should work. Mark the centre heavily with a punch on the right place to prevent the drill wandering.

There are a lot of bolts, there's a good chance it'll seal without it, but I'd drill and tap a new hole just so i know it'll hold there.

 

[AnthonyH]

As long as the surfaces are flush the sump could be wedged tight against the block while the gasket dries. A jack on the area with the missing bolt might work.

Better to drill and tap a new hole as mentioned though.

 

[jrkitching]

Masonary still won't work, they are relatively blunt as they are designed to smash brick

A carbide drill is the toughest option; they're designed specifically to be used on hardened steel. But they're brittle; you need to be very careful with small carbide drills not to break one; that would make a bad situation worse.

A safer option is cobalt steel.

A good quality 3mm or 4mm drill should work

I'd start smaller, and work up.

And use a metal cutting lubricant on the drill bit.