Technical Gearbox Nightmare

[tjordan]

I will try to keep the long and frustrating story brief:

Back in July the clutch went in my 06 Fiat Panda. Got towed back to my house, and because needed to use the car in the following days to go on holiday, I paid £495 (mistake number 1) for a mobile clutch replacement. The garage couldn't come to me so I had to pay for a tow to take it there (mistake number 2).

They replace the clutch but call me up to say that the problem is instead with the gearbox. They don't what's wrong with it. I have AA warranty to open a claim to get potentially cover part of the gearbox replacement. This garage has not sent any of the evidence that the AA engineer has asked of them (pictures of clutch oil, images of the suspected fault in the gearbox), even though they claim to me they have.

Cut a long story short, almost three months into the process I tell the garage to shove it and have it towed to a Fiat specialist and a seemingly much more trustworthy garage.

My question is, is it normal for a 125k mileage panda to require a complete gearbox replacement?

 

[koalar]

Lack of oil kills the gearbox input bearing and seal, unless you carry on driving it while noisy it's normally repairable

Gearbox look after normally outlasts the car

Someone has done 500,000 miles
I have had two cars that have done just under and over 200,000 miles

But it's not that unual for the gearbox to fail shortly after a clutch change


What are the symptoms

 

[rmjbn1]

I would expect the input shaft bearing and seal to have packed up at this mileage, plus some other seals like driveshaft might need changing, but nothing major.

There are millions of these boxes in use without any other known weaknesses.

It would be interesting to know the symptoms. Gear lever cables and clutch hydraulics can cause gear selection issues.

Is it manual transmission or DuaLogic?

 

[tjordan]

I would expect the input shaft bearing and seal to have packed up at this mileage, plus some other seals like driveshaft might need changing, but nothing major.

There are millions of these boxes in use without any other known weaknesses.

It would be interesting to know the symptoms. Gear lever cables and clutch hydraulics can cause gear selection issues.

Is it manual transmission or DuaLogic?

It’s a manual. The initial symptom was a juddering when setting off in 1st gear and going into second. Then when the clutch completely went, the clutch pedal goes down but there was no bite from the first gear. That’s when it got towed off never to be seen again.

 

[koalar]

The initial problem of juddering was likely to be contamination and/or wobble from the input shaft due to the cage in the bearing disappearing

If you drop the clutch aggressively and it not too bad but worse if you slip the clutch more it likely to be the bearing,

There was a simple test to check first but we are past that now

I suspect the problems now are due to the workmanship of the clutch change, Especially given the time frame

I guess we have no option to wait and see what the new garage says

 

[rmjbn1]

Aye, I wonder what the symptoms were once the garage had fitted a new clutch?

I suspect a lot of boxes go back in after a clutch change with a knackered input shaft bearing - it'll run fine but be noisy and leak a bit of oil into the bell housing - unless a ball bearing breaks free and causes some damage.

It's a pity, but hopefully back on its wheels soon.

 

[tjordan]

So the claim has been approved, the rear diff was broken. According to the garage it's very rare that happens which makes me slightly worried. But good outcome. Goes to show what a decent garage can turn around in 2 days compared to the shisters that had it since August.

 

[Yolanda]

On this subject there's something that's niggling me. I've started to get a clutch judder when setting off from cold. After two or three set off's its fine as the clutch warms up it's then silky smooth. I can't see it being the dog bone or engine mount, or could it. there is no slipping and the clutch bites about half pedal. If I'm a bit more aggressive (not to much) with the revs etc it's fine. The clutch apparently was changed and some other work done to the box some time before I bought the car getting on for Two and a half years ago now and I've done 3k careful miles since. So what could be the problem.

As a post script this has only started since the outside temp has dropped, but personally I can't see this making any difference, although I will stand corrected,as there are members on here with a lot more experience on the model than me.

 

[koalar]

Could be lots of things

Gearbox
Mounts
Engine
Clutch

I suspect engine running myself which often run slightly worse cold

Any noise

Do you have a scanner


On the gearbox

The Input bearing usally makes it more noisey in neutral, but not always

If left the input seal goes and you can detect oil inside the bell housing, there's an inspection hole at the top, if you put your finger in and is coved in oil, it a good clue into which direction to go. Free only take a few seconds, engine Off obviously

The cover in black here is normally missing

 

[SB1500]

I replaced the gearbox oil, seals and bearings along with a clutch kit back in 2016 with my ‘05 Panda Dynamic. I felt that the gear change was a bit crunchy / resistant to changing in some cases. Total cost around £150 all in for the parts but it took an entire weekend and having to do it twice before we got it right. I just have been around 125k guessing at that stage.

I replaced the clutch master and slave cylinders too on it. Eventually it shifted pretty smoothly / clutch felt like a new car after. Never had any other gearbox issues.

If you can spend a weekend and have a garage, tools, and someone to help it can be ‘reconditioned’ like this for not too much cash.

 

[Yolanda]

Could be lots of things

Gearbox
Mounts
Engine
Clutch

I suspect engine running myself which often run slightly worse cold

Any noise

Do you have a scanner


On the gearbox

The Input bearing usally makes it more noisey in neutral, but not always

If left the input seal goes and you can detect oil inside the bell housing, there's an inspection hole at the top, if you put your finger in and is coved in oil, it a good clue into which direction to go. Free only take a few seconds, engine Off obviously

The cover in black here is normally missing

View attachment 432823

No scanner and no noises. I'll check for any oil in the bell housing.
Thanks for the prompt reply.

 

[Yolanda]

Still got the Judder. So today I removed and inspected all the mounts. 1 Dog Bone 2 Gearbox 3 Engine.
A few small splits in the dog bone mount, but nothing detached the other two looked fine, I'll just add here that everthing was tight prior to undoing. Also checked the bottom of the bell houseing and it's dry. I put everything back thinking I would get a new dog bone mount. Drove the car round the block and to my surprise the Judder has gone. So I'm a bit baffled. I'll have to see how it goes,if it comes back I'll get a dog bone mount.

 

[Yolanda]

Koalar. Where are you, I would love to hear your Vieu on this.

 

[jackwhoo]

@koalar

 

[koalar]

It can be hard know if its a running issue, mount issue, clutch issue, a gearbox issue and I have probably missed something

I have had judder three time on my Pandas,

Once with a blown head gasket and once with ball bearings missing on the input shaft and one with oil over the MAP sensor, they all felt very similar

See what we can eliminate, it's best to take little steps

A judder that's worse reversing up a slope is normally the gearbox mount

Reversing up the ramp in a multi story car park is a pretty good test, just make sure its safe

Except for gearbox mount I can't think of any other uddering that's been a faulty mount

Knocking on acceleration is the most common mount compaint

I normally test the mounts on the drive with a camera or a helper. If go about walking speed forwards and backwards and jab on the brakes and the engine doesn't move a lot it's very unlikely to be the problem

Once the mount has been eliminated we can move on to the next

 

[Yolanda]

Dog Bone Mount changed today. Feb Bilstein via Amazon £21.99 Problem solved.