Technical Fiat 500 1.3 Multijet EGR DPF Oil Level

[Caboz]

I’m new here and would first like to thank you all for the great forum!

Last week I bought a FIAT 500 1.3 Multijet 75hp from a friend of mine, the car is a 2008 and has 71k Kms on the clock.

He was having problems with continuous oil changes (every 1000 to 2000Kms).

I’m able to do almost any mechanical job and I really like 500 so I decided to go ahead.

Now the fun begins!

I received the car and the “change oil” message was on, checked the level and there was a lot of oil…

So, first step let’s change the oil and filter… I took 5Liters of oil from the car and all it took was 3Liters to completely fill it up. Meaning: 2Liters of diesel in the oil!

Ok, this is probably because the DPF is clogged… Let’s do a forced regeneration.

I did two forced regenerations and took the DPF from 98% clogged to 85%. I was expecting better results.

Meanwhile the oil level is already well above the maximum mark! Just after 50Kms and two forced regenerations.

Q1 is this to be expected from the Forced Regenerations?

Next steps,

1. Disassemble the DPF and have it cleaned in a pressure machine.
2. Disassemble the EGR and cooler to give it a good clean.
3. Disassemble the intake manifold and clean it? (is this worth it from your experience on these engines?)

I can think of other ways for the engine to get full of diesel:

• Bad High-Pressure Pump
• Bad injector

Are these normal things on this 1.3 engine?

I will keep you posted on the success or not of my endeavor.

 

[bugsymike]

I’m new here and would first like to thank you all for the great forum!

Last week I bought a FIAT 500 1.3 Multijet 75hp from a friend of mine, the car is a 2008 and has 71k Kms on the clock.

He was having problems with continuous oil changes (every 1000 to 2000Kms).

I’m able to do almost any mechanical job and I really like 500 so I decided to go ahead.

Now the fun begins!

I received the car and the “change oil” message was on, checked the level and there was a lot of oil…

So, first step let’s change the oil and filter… I took 5Liters of oil from the car and all it took was 3Liters to completely fill it up. Meaning: 2Liters of diesel in the oil!

Ok, this is probably because the DPF is clogged… Let’s do a forced regeneration.

I did two forced regenerations and took the DPF from 98% clogged to 85%. I was expecting better results.

Meanwhile the oil level is already well above the maximum mark! Just after 50Kms and two forced regenerations.

Q1 is this to be expected from the Forced Regenerations?

Next steps,

1. Disassemble the DPF and have it cleaned in a pressure machine.
2. Disassemble the EGR and cooler to give it a good clean.
3. Disassemble the intake manifold and clean it? (is this worth it from your experience on these engines?)

I can think of other ways for the engine to get full of diesel:

• Bad High-Pressure Pump
• Bad injector

Are these normal things on this 1.3 engine?

I will keep you posted on the success or not of my endeavor.

Leaking injectors was common on the earlier 1.3s, to the point where it was not unknown for a motor to "run away" on a worn one burning the diesel/engine oil until it self destructed when hot.
That was even pre DPF versions.
Can you smell /feel the diesel in the oil.
Can you read higher fuel use between cylinders using diagnostics?

 

[chris3234]

I'd definitely be getting the injectors tested you should be getting a eml for the dog way before you getting the volume of diesel in the oil

I'd also be looking at getting the dog removed and cleaned externally either via cleaning solutions or or company to "bake" it in an oven

 

[AndyRKett]

During regen the car dumps a lot more fuel into the cylinders to up the exhaust temperatures, if it tries to regen but you’re just driving short distances around town all the time, you may be getting loads of failed regens and that extra fuel doesn't get burned can wash by the piston rings and end up in the fuel. This is the main problem caused by people using a car equipped with a DPF doing short journeys
71k km - 44k miles to us brits, on a 2008 car that’s less than 3000miles a year, which for these engines is very very low so would seem to support the lots of short journeys, and sitting around a lot; rather than a high mile car that gets to regularly heat up and burn off the soot.
As an example I had a 2011 Punto Evo Diesel and that was on 177K miles (285k KM) and that had no problems at all with the DPF, everything else was broken and worn out but the DPF was good.

Large amounts of diesel in the oil is very common on cars not used appropriately for a DPF (lots of short journeys)

If this has been going on a while then the diesel will displaced the oil from the piston rings and scrapers, this could have resulted in a lot more wear to the rings and therefore making it easier for fuel to get in the oil, and you've now got a car with potentially poor compression, that is letting a lot of oil passed the rings meaning the oil is getting contaminated very quickly.

As your friend gave up on the car and sold it to you, he may have been told it is more economical to just get rid than to try and fix it.

Maybe a compression test might help you work out if there is still a good seal in the cylinders?

A leaky injector should not cause a dramatic change in the oil level after just one regen.
The fuel pump is not likely to be the cause if they do cause a problem it tends to be leaking diesel down the front of the engine.



I have to confess I have never - ever heard of a 1.3 multijet running away, I am sure (but happy to be corrected) that the 1.3 has a butterfly valve in the intake just up near the EGR, that closes off when you cut the engine meaning in a runaway situation if you just stop the car it will starve the engine of air and runaway cannot continue.

 

[Caboz]

Thank you all for the great inputs!

Now I need to add to my list injectors test and a compression test. It makes perfect sense.

What I think is strange is how much the oil level rose with two Forced Regenerations and 50kms in one day. I estimate approximately 800ml.

 

[Caboz]

Regarding the injector test, I have a Multiecuscan tool, will I be able to do any conclusive tests?

 

[bugsymike]

I have only personally experienced it once, it was a Scudo van that I did a head gasket job, the owner started it up and revved it, next thing it was screaming, I told him to take his foot off the pedal, it was,I told him to switch off he did, still screaming engine, in the end I stalled it.
It turned out he had the van from new , did all his own servicing, never ever changed the oil only topped it up!

In 2012 a Forum member "lungi" mentioned:- "I have 2008 Fiat 500 deisel, which has the particular filter. I was not warned of this when I purchased the car until one day, the little light came on. I immediately rang the garage, as it said to do so in the hand book. I was told to take it on a run on a dual carriage way to clear it! I did this and it did clear. A few weeks later this happened again, so I took it for a run and so it went on. This week I was driving back from town when suddenly clouds of white smoke was coming from the exhaust, the engine was revering like mad. I turned the key and took them out but still it was going but getting much worse! The street was filled with thick white smoke"

 

[AndyRKett]

I have only personally experienced it once, it was a Scudo van that I did a head gasket job, the owner started it up and revved it, next thing it was screaming, I told him to take his foot off the pedal, it was,I told him to switch off he did, still screaming engine, in the end I stalled it.
It turned out he had the van from new , did all his own servicing, never ever changed the oil only topped it up!

In 2012 a Forum member "lungi" mentioned:- "I have 2008 Fiat 500 deisel, which has the particular filter. I was not warned of this when I purchased the car until one day, the little light came on. I immediately rang the garage, as it said to do so in the hand book. I was told to take it on a run on a dual carriage way to clear it! I did this and it did clear. A few weeks later this happened again, so I took it for a run and so it went on. This week I was driving back from town when suddenly clouds of white smoke was coming from the exhaust, the engine was revering like mad. I turned the key and took them out but still it was going but getting much worse! The street was filled with thick white smoke"

The Scudo never used the 1.3 as I remember?

The case in 2012 seems to suggest it is quit a rare occurrence on this engine and the post goes onto say that the car did stop itself. I looked at the 1.3 manifold and there is indeed a butterfly valve which cuts the air to the engine when it is switched off so this would all seem to suggest that in that 2012 case runaway started but the engine did stop rather than the pistons flying around the building.
That case is quite interesting. DannyBoy who posted on there was a Fiat Tech and pointed out that constant over fueling and failed regens leads to engine damage, he pointed out that the car he was involved with spun a bearing shell on the crank shaft because with all that diesel getting in the oil the oil was useless at protecting the engine.
Diesel is essentially a good cleaning solvent, so that makes sense I suppose.
He also posts about the oil condition warning coming on and the garages just resetting it without an oil change also leading to these kind of problems.

In this thread I think the car in question potentially sits in the same mechanical situation as the example dannyboy gave, sounds like it has been run a lot, with a lot of diesel in the oil. It is certainly possible that the engine is badly damaged or verging on it. The issue is does the OP was to spend a thousand euros on a DPF only to find out the engine is toast.

Conversely if the OP has now managed to perform a full regen and got the clog down to 85% the care may now be happy that it has successfully completed a regen and stop dumping gallons of fuel into the oil.

Maybe the right course of action at the moment is to change the oil again to get rid of the diesel. Then just use the car and see if any of the regen issues, or fuel accumulating in the oil occurs again. so Service the car, then just watch what happens next.

 

[bugsymike]

Quite right re Scudo, I was referring to the only time I personally experienced a diesel engine running away, the other was the 08 Fiat 500 diesel I found after a quick search online and turned out to have been a Forum member in 2012 so car was only 4 years old then. In the piece I read the lady said it was screaming and even with key out so presumably any "anti run" device such as the butterfly wasn't working.
All I meant was that whilst I agree not a common event, it is not totally unknown, though more likely on high mileage neglected vehicles I would agree.
I had read about others as I was interested when working on daughters 1.3 Grande Punto 55 reg. (06 version) which was a pre DPF version so no regens involved, as a precaution I changed the oil more often than recommended as I did notice the oil got dirty a lot quicker than my 2.8 Sofim diesels with double the mileage.

 

[Caboz]

The Scudo never used the 1.3 as I remember?

The case in 2012 seems to suggest it is quit a rare occurrence on this engine and the post goes onto say that the car did stop itself. I looked at the 1.3 manifold and there is indeed a butterfly valve which cuts the air to the engine when it is switched off so this would all seem to suggest that in that 2012 case runaway started but the engine did stop rather than the pistons flying around the building.
That case is quite interesting. DannyBoy who posted on there was a Fiat Tech and pointed out that constant over fueling and failed regens leads to engine damage, he pointed out that the car he was involved with spun a bearing shell on the crank shaft because with all that diesel getting in the oil the oil was useless at protecting the engine.
Diesel is essentially a good cleaning solvent, so that makes sense I suppose.
He also posts about the oil condition warning coming on and the garages just resetting it without an oil change also leading to these kind of problems.

In this thread I think the car in question potentially sits in the same mechanical situation as the example dannyboy gave, sounds like it has been run a lot, with a lot of diesel in the oil. It is certainly possible that the engine is badly damaged or verging on it. The issue is does the OP was to spend a thousand euros on a DPF only to find out the engine is toast.

Conversely if the OP has now managed to perform a full regen and got the clog down to 85% the care may now be happy that it has successfully completed a regen and stop dumping gallons of fuel into the oil.

Maybe the right course of action at the moment is to change the oil again to get rid of the diesel. Then just use the car and see if any of the regen issues, or fuel accumulating in the oil occurs again. so Service the car, then just watch what happens next.

Thank you!

I share the same opinion, and my next course of action is to change the oil again.

Next I will be removing the DPF to have it cleaned in a machine. I hear that it gives great results.

 

[Caboz]

Now I have some more information.

These are the values on the injectors one at idle one at about 2000RPM.

One thing I noticed is the engine passed the max rev limit, 3 times reaching 5920RPM for a total of 2 sec. I need to do a compression test.

 

[Caboz]

So, today I did a compression test.

1. Engine wormed up
2. Remove Fuel Pump Relay T17
3. Removed the Air Filter box
4. Disconnected the Glow Plugs
5. Removed the Glow Plugs
6. Connected the compression meter and tested all 4 cylinders turning the starter motor for 5 seconds
7. Assembled everything in reverse order

Glow plugs torque 10Nm

Now to the measurements:

1 - 340 psi
2 - 340 psi
3 - 340 psi
4 - 350 psi

I don't know what the target value is for this engine but as a rule of thumb in a diesel car I would be searching for something between 300 to 400 psi.

 

[bugsymike]

Generally if checking piston rings you do a dry compression test as you have done and then compare it with a "wet" test by introducing a few mm of engine oil down each cylinder bore, which if it increases the compression readings can indicate worn piston rings/bores etc.
However I would caution, if doing this to give 15 minutes or so for the oil to drain down the bores and then crank over engine several times to get rid of any access with injectors or heater plugs out before doing the test to prevent the chance of a "hydraulic lock" which could be very damaging!!!
Looking at your readings, they are quite uniform so I wouldn't expect a massive increase in the readings and probably not the source of the issue in my opinion.
If still concerned a "leak test" is another test on engine condition, but I suspect it will not show much more than what you have now.
Apart from increased fuel introduced during "Regen" do any of your injector readings seem excessive in normal use?

 

[Caboz]

Generally if checking piston rings you do a dry compression test as you have done and then compare it with a "wet" test by introducing a few mm of engine oil down each cylinder bore, which if it increases the compression readings can indicate worn piston rings/bores etc.
However I would caution, if doing this to give 15 minutes or so for the oil to drain down the bores and then crank over engine several times to get rid of any access with injectors or heater plugs out before doing the test to prevent the chance of a "hydraulic lock" which could be very damaging!!!
Looking at your readings, they are quite uniform so I wouldn't expect a massive increase in the readings and probably not the source of the issue in my opinion.
If still concerned a "leak test" is another test on engine condition, but I suspect it will not show much more than what you have now.
Apart from increased fuel introduced during "Regen" do any of your injector readings seem excessive in normal use?

Thank you for you input!

I think I’m happy with the compression figures. Unless anyone have some information of the actual target value.

Next step will do a return flow test on the injectors.

And after this some hose cleaning, DPF, EGR and eventually inlet manifold.
The space on this car is a PITA to work on the EGR.

 

[Caboz]

New oil and filter, hope this one lasts a little longer

 

[DaveMcT]

It's a bit left field, but check he turbo intercooler for oil. If the turbo seals are going you'll be throwing oil down into the DPF.

By the way, Ford use a diesel misting injector at the DPF to provide enough heat to regenerate the DPF filter. Simply cleaning the DPF is pointless if that injector has failed - which they do - a lot. I have no idea if Fiat do something similar, but the 1.3 JTD is pretty efficient. It may have a similar setup.

 

[Caboz]

Some progress:

Disassembled the DPF and Catalytic Converter and both were cleaned in a machine outside of the car. The Cat was ok, but the DPF was really hard to clean, it took 3 45min cycles to reach acceptable levels.

I took the Turbo out and all seams ok.

The car feels faster on acceleration.

I will test the injectors next to check how they are. I have bean busy replacing brakes and brake fluid.

 

[Caboz]

It's a bit left field, but check he turbo intercooler for oil. If the turbo seals are going you'll be throwing oil down into the DPF.

By the way, Ford use a diesel misting injector at the DPF to provide enough heat to regenerate the DPF filter. Simply cleaning the DPF is pointless if that injector has failed - which they do - a lot. I have no idea if Fiat do something similar, but the 1.3 JTD is pretty efficient. It may have a similar setup.

Thanks! I did a check and the Turbo is good.

The Multijet engine uses a multiple injection technology (5 on this engine), one of the injections (post injection) is in the exhaust moment and works in the same way as you described.

 

[Caboz]

I took a reading of the DPF Clogging after cleaning and it is a lot better: 44,54%

 

[bugsymike]

On one of my cars a C3 Picasso 1.6 diesel a few years ago I cleaned the particulate filter, but recently I changed it and it is running a lot better now.Here are a few readings as a guide (it has done 220,000 miles) , where it shows the 2mbar reading at idle if I put the accelerator right down it goes to 64mbar temporary as a guide.