Van is 2016 2.3JTD 130 L3H2, light/regular chassis (non-Maxi) with 190k miles. There has always been a bit of judder on first gear when lifting the clutch / starting off from stand still - but two days ago it started juddering really badly in first and reverse. I could barely reverse into the driveway. As a test, with the van stopped, I put it into 2nd and starting lifting the clutch. The van juddered quite badly, but the engine didn't cut off. Are these symptoms typical of clutch slipping, and is it likely the case of a replacement clutch - or should I investigate further in the first instance? Also, is there a heavy duty clutch option for the regular chassis? I wouldn't mind paying extra for something which would last longer. Many thanks for any info.
Technical Extreme judder - is the clutch slipping?
- Thread starter xj25vm
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Technical Extreme judder - is the clutch slipping?
In general if a clutch judders badly on trying to pull away particularly up a a steep hill, the first thing I would check for is any oil around the bellhousing of the gearbox, often if parked on a slope with the gearbox higher than the engine, or if gearbox oil level to high or merely of the oil seal and/or the bearing on the first motion shaft starting to fail, then oil can run onto the clutch plate.
This can start as a slight judder gradually getting worse, in extreme cases the oil will cause the clutch to slip.
The other possible cause is if the clutch has a mechanical fault, a cracked pressure plate or spring.
If it happened just after a new clutch had been fitted it can be caused by poor fitting, resting the gearbox on the clutch as fitting, causing damage, not something I have ever done in over 55 years in the trade , but I have heard of it.
In both those cases your are looking at a expensive job involving gearbox removal and replacement parts
Sorry I can't give price guide as have been retired from motor trade for several years.
Occasionally you can prove if oil is the cause at the early stages by deliberately slipping the clutch for 30 seconds or so trying to pull away up a steep hill to "burn" the oil off the friction material to see if eases the judder.
This will not cure the problem, merely help identifying the cause.
Re heavy duty clutches, unless you are carrying heavy loads or doing many stops and starts like a delivery driver, then a good quality clutch from a well known manufacturer should be fine.
This can start as a slight judder gradually getting worse, in extreme cases the oil will cause the clutch to slip.
The other possible cause is if the clutch has a mechanical fault, a cracked pressure plate or spring.
If it happened just after a new clutch had been fitted it can be caused by poor fitting, resting the gearbox on the clutch as fitting, causing damage, not something I have ever done in over 55 years in the trade , but I have heard of it.
In both those cases your are looking at a expensive job involving gearbox removal and replacement parts
Sorry I can't give price guide as have been retired from motor trade for several years.
Occasionally you can prove if oil is the cause at the early stages by deliberately slipping the clutch for 30 seconds or so trying to pull away up a steep hill to "burn" the oil off the friction material to see if eases the judder.
This will not cure the problem, merely help identifying the cause.
Re heavy duty clutches, unless you are carrying heavy loads or doing many stops and starts like a delivery driver, then a good quality clutch from a well known manufacturer should be fine.
Also worth checking engine/gearbox mounts. With the engine stopped and in neutral see if you can move the engine by pushing or pulling.
There should be very little movement.
Visually check the mounts as well for tightness and no splitting rubbers.
The early Ducato's had a very weak bottom engine mount which gave very similar symptoms to yours.
Might still be some treads to ' Juddergate' on the interweb
There should be very little movement.
Visually check the mounts as well for tightness and no splitting rubbers.
The early Ducato's had a very weak bottom engine mount which gave very similar symptoms to yours.
Might still be some treads to ' Juddergate' on the interweb
Thank you very much both for the comprehensive replies and the useful information. I will follow your instructions to try and determine if there is oil contamination on the clutch.
In reply to the point raised, the clutch hasn't been replaced recently. I actually don't know when the clutch was replaced - I've had the van since 160k miles, and now it is on 190k miles.
Regarding the heavy duty clutch, this is a converted campervan sitting just below 3000kg in normal use - which is the equivalent of a permanently loaded commercial van. Also, a few months ago, I changed the 15" steel wheels for 16" (factory) steel wheels. Since then it feels like there is more torque applied on the clutch and more judder on pulling away - probably because of the bigger overall wheel circumference. Taking into account both reasons together, I was thinking of investing in a heavy duty clutch - if I end up replacing the clutch - as long as the price difference is not onerous. If anyone knows of a heavy duty clutch for this engine/van?
Many thanks again for all the help.
In reply to the point raised, the clutch hasn't been replaced recently. I actually don't know when the clutch was replaced - I've had the van since 160k miles, and now it is on 190k miles.
Regarding the heavy duty clutch, this is a converted campervan sitting just below 3000kg in normal use - which is the equivalent of a permanently loaded commercial van. Also, a few months ago, I changed the 15" steel wheels for 16" (factory) steel wheels. Since then it feels like there is more torque applied on the clutch and more judder on pulling away - probably because of the bigger overall wheel circumference. Taking into account both reasons together, I was thinking of investing in a heavy duty clutch - if I end up replacing the clutch - as long as the price difference is not onerous. If anyone knows of a heavy duty clutch for this engine/van?
Many thanks again for all the help.
Re the wheels, it is more if you increased the rolling circumferance by not going to lower profile tyres to match the original circumference as the affect would be similar to pulling away in 2nd rather than first so the increased size will not help what ever the clutch issue is.
Another issue is speedo accuracy
Another issue is speedo accuracy
The rolling circumference has increased indeed as I installed tyres per Fiat spec for the 16" wheels - which have a larger circumference. The speedo accuracy has changed as well - it was overrated by 8% on 15", now it is dead on - so I have to be really careful when going past cameras as there is no more leeway And I suppose it is possible that if the clutch was on its way out, the extra torque from the larger circumference wheels has just about pushed it over the edge.
And I suppose it is possible that if the clutch was on its way out, the extra torque from the larger circumference wheels has just about pushed it over the edge.
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Just a follow up to this - in case it will help someone. Over the course of one week and a few short (2-3 miles) journeys, the clutch is almost back to normal and there is very little judder. I had to assume that there must have been some oil contamination, which has burnt off. Tonight I got under a van and had a look, and lo and behold, very conveniently, there is a small black oil patch and a little drip just at the end of the engine where it meets the gearbox. I will have to try and find out where it is coming from and how it can be fixed - but I think we can safely assume it is the cause of the clutch judder. At least it looks like I won't be needing to replace the clutch just yet. Thank you again to everyone who helped with suggestions.
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Another follow up on this - in case it will be helpful to someone. The clutch judder improved after changing the oil pan and seal two months ago - but hasn't disappeared completely. Yesterday and today I was investigating some squeaking from the rear wheels, and discovered the handbrake shoes were binding - I couldn't spin the rear wheels by hand at all when the van was jacked up. After readjusting the handbrake cables and eliminating the drag, the last of the clutch judder is gone. Not only that, but I just realised the van was really sluggish on take off in first gear recently. I used to put it down to the clutch coming to the end of its life. After readjusting the handbrake, it is back to being lively the way it used to be. One thing which didn't help in detecting the dragging handbrake is the fact that the van continued to do close to 40 mpg true consumption on a long gentle run - which is only a bit lower than it used to do. I would have expected a bigger drop in mpg from a binding handbrake.
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In case you are still interested in a heavy duty clutch, SACHS Performance is one option. They have models for Ducato.
Thank you. It looks like my clutch is back to normal - but when the time comes to replace it, I will take a closer look at the SACHS Performance clutches.
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