Technical Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

[FoXy8]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Thanks FoXy8. Is this an aftermarket add on from FIAT or another manufacturer? Do you have any more details or web links to any information on this?

Yes this is an aftermarket add on, but not from Fiat. Please google around and you will find more information on the subject as I am afraid I can't be more specific on names / PR here on this forum.
But this unit make the engine just the way the engine should have been from new.

 

[Stu DemonD]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Yes this is an aftermarket add on, but not from Fiat. Please google around and you will find more information on the subject as I am afraid I can't be more specific on names / PR here on this forum.
But this unit make the engine just the way the engine should have been from new.

Why can't you post it here? Nothing is stopping you from being specific.

You do realise we aren't FIAT? ...

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi,


Although ths might be some sort of a sideline to all 500 owner with slow throttle response I might tell you this:


On the 500 marked you will find several unit designed to reduce 500 initial lag, This unit is connected to your stock pedal assembly and allows you to choose between settings for different driving styles.

It advances your throttle’s timing to give you a more direct response, and this throttle control signal amplifier is installed in minutes without any tools. It is not a permanent modification and can be returned to stock just as easily. The devise has been designed to make your 500 more responsive.


Personaly I got this unit instaaed on my own TwinAir and I can inform you that it makes a significant difference in the way the 500 responds.

AFAIK all that this type of unit does is to change the sensitivity of the throttle pedal, so it's going to do exacty the same thing as pressing the pedal a bit harder when you pull away.

Since folks are reporting that pressing the pedal further when pulling away causes the engine to hesitate on cars with this issue, my guess is that it's not going to help at all.

 

[Colinsar]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi Palma tried the hill start today on the steepest hill in easbourne and it performed perfectly the three times .
I think my car is one of the latest ones as it has the tyre pressure warning system .
Regards colin

 

[Officina red]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi Palma

I have a new 500 1.2 and while i don't do hill starts , i find if i want to pull away quickly from
a roundabout or junction, i put the revs up to about 2500 then lift the clutch,so you are
doing a racing start.
the 500 then pulls away just fine.

Worth a try.

 

[Palma500s]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Hi Palma tried the hill start today on the steepest hill in easbourne and it performed perfectly the three times .
I think my car is one of the latest ones as it has the tyre pressure warning system .
Regards colin

Thanks very much for your time and effort Colin.

This gives me some hope that the fault on our car could be corrected.

 

[FoXy8]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Why can't you post it here? Nothing is stopping you from being specific.

You do realise we aren't FIAT? ...

Okay. You might find several tread about this unit her at FF. Her is one:

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/354101-magneti-marelli-power-pedal-installed.html

....and her is some rewiev about GoPedal: http://madnessgopedal.com/reviews.php


This unit is not about tuning. And they do not add any torque or extra power - just adjust throttle responses or should I say sensitivity.


I am also unsure if this unit make any change to the issue with the new 1.2 Throttle Respond.

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

Re: 500 Lounge and hills!

From a standing start on a steep hill: Handbrake on, in 1st, clutch down, revving engine then starting to slip the clutch and release the handbrake the revs drop off automatically regardless of me pushing the accelerator and the engine just bogs down and stalls unless I press the clutch again.
I have tried all manner of combinations and there is no way to get the car to pull away. So I have to roll back and take a run at the hill to get up to the top!

I have been driving all sorts of vehicles old and new for 30 years and this is the first time I have had to admit defeat on a hill start.

Just a thought...(and smack me down if it's already been mentioned). Is it possible the hill-holder is applying the brake and not releasing after the normal two seconds? Assuming your vehicle has the hill-holder feature of course - our 1.2 does but it's a DL, not to mention an OZ vehicle, so I can't duplicate the conditions.

 

[jrkitching]

Re: 500 Lounge and hills!

Just a thought...(and smack me down if it's already been mentioned). Is it possible the hill-holder is applying the brake and not releasing after the normal two seconds? Assuming your vehicle has the hill-holder feature of course - our 1.2 does but it's a DL, not to mention an OZ vehicle, so I can't duplicate the conditions.

The OP's car is a manual; it may or may not have hillholder (with due thanks to Zanes & Piccolo for putting me right on that).

From a standing start on a steep hill: Handbrake on, in 1st, clutch down, revving engine then starting to slip the clutch and release the handbrake the revs drop off automatically regardless of me pushing the accelerator and the engine just bogs down and stalls unless I press the clutch again.

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Unless it has ESP.

 

[jrkitching]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Unless it has ESP.

So you get hillholder with ESP even on a manual car?

Shows I'm getting old .

 

[zanes]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

So you get hillholder with ESP even on a manual car?

Shows I'm getting old .

Mine certainly did. Just to be sure, I checked the FIAT site:

Electronic Stability Programme (ESP)

This includes Anti-Slip Regulation (ASR), MSR, Hydraulic Brake Assist (HBA) and Hill Holder.

MSR (aka EDT) was a new one on me, apparently prevents wheel locking under engine braking/harsh downshifts. However you'd manage to cause that.

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

So you get hillholder with ESP even on a manual car?

Shows I'm getting old .

Yup! My TA 500C Lounge manual has, as does the partner's 500C Pop DL. That's why I asked. I wouldn't know if it's so in all markets however.

 

[Palma500s]

Re: 500 Lounge and hills!

Just a thought...(and smack me down if it's already been mentioned). Is it possible the hill-holder is applying the brake and not releasing after the normal two seconds? Assuming your vehicle has the hill-holder feature of course - our 1.2 does but it's a DL, not to mention an OZ vehicle, so I can't duplicate the conditions.

Thanks for the suggestion but it doesn't have hill-holder.

After reading some comments I have tried being a bit more aggressive with the revs which means dipping the clutch a few times to keep it buzzing and I have been able to do the hill start I was having trouble with. This means hitting around 3000rpm which seems a bit excessive /unnecessary. My concern is more for my wife who is a less experienced driver and will struggle with this approach and the car is mainly for her.
The salesman at the dealership hasn't been available so still no feedback from there yet.

 

[jrkitching]

Re: 500 Lounge and hills!

My concern is more for my wife who is a less experienced driver and will struggle with this approach

I would also be concerned about the effect this style of driving will have on the longevity of your clutch and on your fuel economy .

 

[FoXy8]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

Could this issue possible be related to new Fiat 500 with Euro 6 problem??

Look this tread: https://www.fiatforum.com/500/351381-500-euro-6-problems.html


Just asking as I don't drive any new 1.2 version.

 

[Skitza]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

So I thought id jump in on this cause its bugging me a little bit.

I have two 500's that were bought 2 months ago, presumably the same build/my and one is more laggier than the other with acceleration and engine torque. One feels more alive and eager to move than the other unless you sit above 3k.

I took it in and they applied a software update which made it a little bit better I think (hard to say) but it's still not what the other feels like.

I think I'll take it back again and see what's going on cause hill starts are not great and with more than two people I think it would have a hard time doing it on a steep slope.

 

[Palma500s]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I took the car back to the dealer today and explained the problem. The salesman acted as if this was the first time he had heard of the problem whilst the mechanic told me that a lot of new 1.2 owners come back complaining about this very issue.
However the mechanic said there was no problem with the car and it was normal to have these difficulties to pull away and make hill starts as the engine is only a 1.2 and therefore had to be revved harder to get it to work. He also advised turning off the aircon before attempting a hill start.
There was quite a steep ramp to exit the workshop so I asked the mechanic if he could show me how he would make a hill start. He obliged and on the first attempt almost stalled the car. Then he said again that this was normal and revved the engine harder to around 2500 rpm and climbed the ramp. I mentioned that Euro 5 engines didn't appear to have the same issue and he assured me that there wasn't any problem with the car and that I just have to get used to it.
I feel as if I am coming up against a brick wall with this one.

 

[bluejohn125]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I'd say it is clearly a FAULT with some cars, partly due to the EURO 6 nonsense but I'd say mainly due to engine management becoming too "clever" and reliant on correctly operating sensors (or occupants)...

If the pointless hill-hold feature takes over throttle response depending on what the clutch is doing, then this area must be the prime suspect. Maybe some cars are just put together more critically than others.. but there is no way that anyone should be left guessing as to what their car will do and how to avoid it behaving unpredictably. The fact that the main issue seems to be slow and jerky response when pulling away in 1st implies that it is a "start-off" feature misbehaving.

Surely the EURO emissions business just means that the overall response of the engine has become dulled and flattened over the years, it will still produce the quoted power and follow the latest published power and torque curves. Obviously this will all be handled by the ECU along with all these extra features that are being crammed into what should be a simple, practical predictable car.

I drove a Panda 1.2 petrol hire car in Italy last year (same-ish engine) and it did feel a bit gutless and the gear ratios weren't great, but it was fine. I've just come back from a week there with a new Panda turbodiesel 1.3 or whatever, and it was absolutely great, just did everything I needed with no hillstart function, ESP, etc... No problems with the DPF or whatever folks here have been complaining about, it just powered along sweetly and strongly and used sod-all fuel. It just shows that Fiat can still get the basics right if they keep things simple and true to their traditional philosophy (basic, practical fun cars with a bit of character and bomb-proof buzzy little engines).

They need to sort this annoying issue though... the "problem" cars are just not right, it isn't the owners or their driving style.

 

[Piccolo Nero e Bella]

re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response & Hill Start Issues

I took the car back to the dealer today and explained the problem. The salesman acted as if this was the first time he had heard of the problem whilst the mechanic told me that a lot of new 1.2 owners come back complaining about this very issue.
However the mechanic said there was no problem with the car and it was normal to have these difficulties to pull away and make hill starts as the engine is only a 1.2 and therefore had to be revved harder to get it to work. He also advised turning off the aircon before attempting a hill start.

I feel as if I am coming up against a brick wall with this one.

I reckon a 1200 should be more than adequate for what is, after all, quite a small car. My previous car had a 3-pot 950cc and never had the slightest difficulty with hill starts. Admittedly it was 100kg lighter but it developed only 54bhp. In fact it was a more tractable and flexible engine in every way that our 1.2 Pop - cheaper to run too.

Older A/C compressors did use a lot of engine power (witnessed by the rev. drop-off when they cut in) but the operation of the compressor on our Pop is barely noticable.