Technical Ducato 3.0 2009 Stranded Non Starter (Actually a Boxer)

[Philblack]

Firstly apologies as this is a Boxer but I believe uses the same Iveco 3.0 engine.
Currently stranded in a Mercadona car park in rural Spain.
We have had this motorhome conversion for approx 8 years and have done just under 60k miles in our ownership. Always starts first crank, new battery last year. About 8 weeks ago travelling down to the Tunnel we stopped on motorway service for a coffee break. Came out to continue journey and van wouldn't start. All dash lights come on then go off as normal including the padlock symbol, engine cranks quickly but no attempt to fire. Tried numerous times, setting resetting door locks etc always cranking quickly but no start. Eventually called breakdown assistance and waited, after half an hour I just tried again and it started on the button as normal. Called breakdown to advise and they cancelled the call out. We had the tunnel booked early the following morning so decided to continue but to stop and test multiple times on the way. Started first time every time so we made the decision to continue with the trip. 8 weeks, nearly 3000 miles and probably 100+ starts later it's done it again, yesterday on the campsite wouldn't start in the morning exactly the same symptoms, left it a few hours and it started on the button. This evening we needed food for the Bank Holiday weekend so headed to the nearest proper supermarket approx 45 mins drive from the campsite. Came out to drive back and no start again. The van drives perfect and there are no hints of any issues, I do have a basic Bluetooth EML reader but it says no current faults, there is a stored fault relating to glow plugs but it has had this the whole time of our ownership, (the glow symbol flashes for a period after starting). It's also quite warm here so pretty certain that is not the issue.
My thoughts are cam position sensor but would this throw up a fault code or engine management light?
Any ideas or thoughts would be much appreciated. The Easter holiday period is a big thing here in Spain so finding an open garage over the next few days is unlikely, fortunately we do have breakdown cover but not called them yet, it would be our last resort as we have heard many stories of vans being stuck in foreign garages for weeks or more.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,
very general info here as I've not had your motor..

CRANK AngleSensor is a posibility,

No input from the CAS the ECU doesn't "see" the motor is turning therefore doesn't inject fuel

Obviously you have a sound Starter Circuit and it's spinning the motor quite happily

CAS won't leave an error code, as I doesn't appreciate the motor is spinning..

From what you've said.. This appears to be heat dependant (sensitive).. As in the sensor is struggling to pick up any rotation signal



IF you are now stuck with a stranded non. Starter..


I would suggest trying to get it spinning slightly faster (starter motor generally only manages @50% of your normal tickover/ idle speed)


So either a Towstart.. Or a whiff of easystart

As either will get engine RPM raised, where it might get enough input to then sense and run


Ideally.. Just tell us more

We can try and advise you

 

[varesecrazy]

problem hot starting | FIAT Ducato

hi all. my 08 ducato x250 -3L started ok when cold but run it for miles then stop it would turn over but not start leave it to cool down & it started straight away apparently reading on the m/home forum its another fiat thing we have to contend with ( techno 100 put me right good man ) up...

www.fiatforum.com

Have a read..

 

[Philblack]

Thanks for the response, I would agree with the hot start diagnosis except yesterday morning it had been a clear night and we are in the mountains so about 6° to 8°c when we first tried starting after leaving it most of the day it was about 15° when it started as normal. I replaced the earth strap a few years back, but I will check it tomorrow. It's almost midnight here now so staying in the car park fortunately this is the overflow bit which doesn't have gates on. Will see if it starts in the morning and update the forum. Cheers

 

[varesecrazy]

No problem Phil

The basic message was..

Do Not rule out the Crank Sensor, as it won't leave a code

The other thing that Could be a factor is FuelPressure

It needs to hit a good figure BEFORE the ECU permits injection

Again low cranking speed leads to low fuel pump speed = low rail pressure

One thing that you may not have tried..

Run the tank pump Twice on the ignition switch before Cranking
AND
Depress the clutch pedal as you crank the STARTER (So you only spin the Engine not a cold and heavy geartrain)
Might buy you another 100 rpm/100 bar rail pressure


Do let us know how things go

 

[Communicator]

Firstly apologies as this is a Boxer but I believe uses the same Iveco 3.0 engine.
Currently stranded in a Mercadona car park in rural Spain.
We have had this motorhome conversion for approx 8 years and have done just under 60k miles in our ownership. Always starts first crank, new battery last year. About 8 weeks ago travelling down to the Tunnel we stopped on motorway service for a coffee break. Came out to continue journey and van wouldn't start. All dash lights come on then go off as normal including the padlock symbol, engine cranks quickly but no attempt to fire. Tried numerous times, setting resetting door locks etc always cranking quickly but no start. Eventually called breakdown assistance and waited, after half an hour I just tried again and it started on the button as normal. Called breakdown to advise and they cancelled the call out. We had the tunnel booked early the following morning so decided to continue but to stop and test multiple times on the way. Started first time every time so we made the decision to continue with the trip. 8 weeks, nearly 3000 miles and probably 100+ starts later it's done it again, yesterday on the campsite wouldn't start in the morning exactly the same symptoms, left it a few hours and it started on the button. This evening we needed food for the Bank Holiday weekend so headed to the nearest proper supermarket approx 45 mins drive from the campsite. Came out to drive back and no start again. The van drives perfect and there are no hints of any issues, I do have a basic Bluetooth EML reader but it says no current faults, there is a stored fault relating to glow plugs but it has had this the whole time of our ownership, (the glow symbol flashes for a period after starting). It's also quite warm here so pretty certain that is not the issue.
My thoughts are cam position sensor but would this throw up a fault code or engine management light?
Any ideas or thoughts would be much appreciated. The Easter holiday period is a big thing here in Spain so finding an open garage over the next few days is unlikely, fortunately we do have breakdown cover but not called them yet, it would be our last resort as we have heard many stories of vans being stuck in foreign garages for weeks or more.

Hi Phil,
In view of the incidents highlighted above, I cannot agree with the suggestion that your problem is temperature related.

As you have stated, that the vehicle runs OK when started, this tends to exonerate the crank sensor, unless the problem is engine speed related.

The engine uses a Bosch EDC 15C39 ECU, which is probably a developement of the EDC 15C7 used in my 2.8jtd, but that type number does not appear on the label.

I cannot state with certainty for the 3.0 ltr engine, but on the 2.8jtd, the camshaft sensor is only used when starting, to determine the stroke of No. 1 cylinder, and subsequently takes no further part in the control process.

If I had a similar problem, I also would be suspecting the camshaft sensor. I cannot say whether or not a faulty camshaft sensor would cause the ECU to produce a fault code. The alarm logic would have to see two rotations of the crankshaft, with no camshaft sensor output.

By coincidence prior to reading your post late yesterday evening, I had been reading a lengthy technical article about a reluctant to start 2.8jtd. The resolution was by correcting a poorly aligned camshaft sensor.

 

[Philblack]

Thanks for your responses.
So no luck this morning, tried multiple times still cranking quickly. So thought I would try checking connection plugs, wires etc and removing the sensors and cleaning. Did the cam sensor first as it's really easy access, everything looked good and no change also starting crank a little slower but still at a decent speed. Then tried the crank sensor, what a total pain to access, back of the engine tucked in near the alternator, no clear view or access. Head torch and mobile in video mode to see what doing, Removed plug and retaining bolt but couldn't get the sensor out, it would rotate eventually quite easily but couldn't get good enough access to really pull and didn't want risk breaking it. Anyway refitted plug and tried cranking, went first time, tried multiple times and started on the button every time. Refitted bolt, in the process of which I dropped a 10mm 3/8 socket, wedged between the block and alternator bracket but unable to see, feel or access. Fortunately I had a 10mm hex drive socket, as no room for 1/2" drive stuff. Back at the campsite now, multiple stops and all fine so far....
So unless a total coincidence, it does point to a crank sensor related issue either wiring plug or dirt? on the sensor which has been dislodged with my actions. I think we will try to pick up a sensor in Spain keep our fingers crossed and hope I don't have to fit it until home in a couple of weeks time. Thanks again for the thoughts and suggestions