Technical Converting Panda 169 from power steering to mechinical steering

[Patjes]

Have been reading several days all the topics about the faulty powersteering on my panda.
Never had a car with power steering before and yesterday had the change to drive a Panda 169 without powersteering original and it wasnt steering that heavy.
Now am i looking for whitch parts a need te converse my Panda with powersteering to a panda without.

Tha car is a LHD so the parts must be avialble if if am reading well. Here in the Netherlands there is no MOT rules that says that i cant convert it to mechinal steering so that is not a part of the problem.
Is it enough to replace to steeringkolom to a steeringkolom without the electri motor or is the steering rack also different?
Also would i like to ask if this is the right kolom (picture) for a car without powersteerieng.
Sorry for the many questions but i rather read in myself good before taking the car apart.

Thank you already for the time reading this and i hope someone in this nice community knows the answers, a good day to you all!!

with friendly regards Paul (Patjes)

 

[koalar]

41201/00 - STEERING GEAR

FIAT NUOVA PANDA (2003-2009)

eper.fiatforum.com

The rack is different

You will also have to reprogram the body computer, to remove the warning light

As far as I can tell the inter connecting shaft is the same

Seems pointless to me unless you need to save weight for a race car, the EPS is both nice and reliable. The electrical supply to the EPS is normally to blame, often due aging component or lack of maintenance, it just the first symptoms are the body computer cutting the power to the EPS so you can get home

We have a saying here in the UK

It's like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face

 

[AndyRKett]

At Koalar.

Would there be any change in the hub assemblies for a differing castor angle on power steering versus non power steering?

Often it's never just a case of changing the steering rack and often other parts of the suspension are matched to give better steering feel and performance where the power steering isn't present.

I remember they did do a mk2 punto without power steering, it was the most cheap budget model, which I don't believe they sold in the UK, it didn't even come with any sort of radio, wind up windows etc. There were discussions about this on the forum years ago and I am sure I remember there being differences in more than just the rack.

 

[koalar]

At Koalar.

Would there be any change in the hub assemblies for a differing castor angle on power steering versus non power steering?

Often it's never just a case of changing the steering rack and often other parts of the suspension are matched to give better steering feel and performance where the power steering isn't present.

I remember they did do a mk2 punto without power steering, it was the most cheap budget model, which I don't believe they sold in the UK, it didn't even come with any sort of radio, wind up windows etc. There were discussions about this on the forum years ago and I am sure I remember there being differences in more than just the rack.

There a lot of different hubs

The pre ABS is listed which were only fitted for a short while

But none specifically mention the EPS

 

[Patjes]

Thank you both for the reply, and the offered information, the drawing of the parts are very helpfull,

so on my partslist goes for know:

- one steeringkolom
- one steeringrack (have seen that these new are quite affordable
- programming to reset the steeringfaullight (thats one thing i need to look in further to)
...

 

[jrkitching]

Often it's never just a case of changing the steering rack

Not sure about the Panda, but quite frequently both the steering gearing and the diameter of the steering wheel are different on models without PAS. And as you say, the steering geometry may be different also.

On versions with EPAS, the steering becomes quite heavy if assistance is lost; if the OP has driven one without the fitment and found the steering loads reasonable, that suggests to me that there are going to be some differences. If you attempt this conversion, it may not be as light as you are remembering.

And with unassisted steering, you'll likely want to stick with the most basic wheel/tyre options.

I'm not aware of any 169's being sold in the UK without it (it was standard even on the 1.1 Active, the lowest spec model in the range), but in Europe, I believe a lower specification model was available, called the 'naked' version.

Most EPAS failures are down to weak electrical connections, easily and cheaply rectified. But even in the worst case of a refurbished steering column being required, repairing what's currently there would likely still be easier and cheaper than making the conversion. I'd imagine there could be insurance implications, too.

My advice is to just fix whatever's broken.

 

[bugsymike]

Manual steering generally is usually lower geared so more turns of the steering wheel required, also as has been mentioned wheels and tyres, basic non power steering vehicles often had narrow wheels and tyres which are easier to turn than newer wider low profile tyres etc.

 

[koalar]

Not sure about the Panda, but quite frequently both the steering gearing and the diameter of the steering wheel are different on models without PAS. And as you say, the steering geometry may be different also.

On versions with EPAS, the steering becomes quite heavy if assistance is lost; if the OP has driven one without the fitment and found the steering loads reasonable, that suggests to me that there are going to be some differences.

And with unassisted steering, you'll likely want to stick with the most basic wheel/tyre options.

I'm not aware of any 169's being sold in the UK without it (it was standard even on the 1.1 Active, the lowest spec model in the range), but in Europe, I believe a lower specification model was available, called the 'naked' version.

Most EPAS failures are down to weak electrical connections, easily and cheaply rectified. But even in the worst case of a refurbished steering column being required, repairing what's currently there would likely still be easier and cheaper than making the conversion. I'd imagine there could be insurance implications, too.

My advice is to just fix whatever's broken.

Yep we learnt a lot in the last 5 years

What use to be a replement column or torque sensor now get repaired without major costs

The only slightly annoying thing is there isn't one simple answer and reading the codes is misleading

I like the proportional weight of the EPS

Light when parking and firms up when moving

They will probably limited to the 155 80 R13, the more grip there is the more annoying it will become at low speed


Whoops I see @bugsymike wrote the same thing while I was writing this

 

[Patjes]

Thanks for the opions, but my question was not ment to discuss if power steering is nicer or something like that...

but if it is technical possible to replace it to a system without and which parts are excatly needed, I dont like the feeling of the power steering, and find the non power steering car in the snow had much more given feeling what the wheels are doing then with eps. So many people so many wishes, with all respect.

 

[jrkitching]

I dont like the feeling of the power steering

I totally get this.

If you're doing it because you'd prefer to have the car without power steering, what you're proposing makes perfect sense.

 

[koalar]

I can not be 100% sure as nobody as far as I know nobody has done it

Steering wheel, hubs everything else mentioned so far are identical regardless of EPS or not as far as I can check

I suspect you could just need to buy the rack

removing the motor from the column disconect it's electronics
And do a proxi in multiECUscan

Disconnecting modules and running a proxi has removed the ABS on a punto

But there's no garentee it will work on the Esp and the Panda

You could start here before buying any parts

Here in the UK we would have to inform our insurance company,

Disconnecting it is also a MOT fail here in the UK unless it an early Panda where it was an optional fitment, but I doubt it would ever get picked up on

 

[bugsymike]

I totally get this.

If you're doing it because you'd prefer to have the car without power steering, what you're proposing makes perfect sense.

I agree nothing wrong with wanting manual steering as a preference, it is just whether it is viable conversion at the end of the day given the amount of work involved.
Many older Forum members I am sure like me learnt to drive on much more simple and basic vehicles, far easier and cheaper to repair than today's models.

 

[A3jeroen]

a 169 Panda without Power Steering? Never heard of one. And why (and I mean WHY!) would you want to convert it?
I changed a torquesensor once on my 100 HP (easily found on this forum) by taking the complete column plus steeringwheel out. Really no problem at all. When you are very secure it doesn't even require calibrating (MES) to work properly right away. So a (real) problem (not a bad battery or groundcable) is not difficult to overcome.

gr J

 

[Yolanda]

41201/00 - STEERING GEAR

FIAT NUOVA PANDA (2003-2009)

eper.fiatforum.com

The rack is different

You will also have to reprogram the body computer, to remove the warning light

As far as I can tell the inter connecting shaft is the same

Seems pointless to me unless you need to save weight for a race car, the EPS is both nice and reliable. The electrical supply to the EPS is normally to blame, often due aging component or lack of maintenance, it just the first symptoms are the body computer cutting the power to the EPS so you can get home

We have a saying here in the UK

It's like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face

Can any maintenance be done on the on the system I thought it was a kind of a sealed component. I'm always looking for ways to prolong the life of anything rather than replacing it.

 

[Yolanda]

Thanks for the opions, but my question was not ment to discuss if power steering is nicer or something like that...

but if it is technical possible to replace it to a system without and which parts are excatly needed, I dont like the feeling of the power steering, and find the non power steering car in the snow had much more given feeling what the wheels are doing then with eps. So many people so many wishes, with all respect.

I think you might be creating problems for yourself on this issue. As we say in the UK making a rod for your own back. Why don't you just drive the car around for a few weeks, you might get accustomed to the feel of it, as you say this is the first power assisted steering car you have driven.

 

[koalar]

Can any maintenance be done on the on the system I thought it was a kind of a sealed component. I'm always looking for ways to prolong the life of anything rather than replacing it.

Not that much I can think off as such

I had two cars hit just over and just under the 200,000 mile mark without any issues with the column or rack, I know of 2 that have done over 500,000 miles without issue to the column or rack

That's not to say I haven't had problems, 1 recalibrate, 1 slipping belt, over 4 batteries I can't remember, probably some other stuff I have forgoten about. I have repaired several other cars with EPS, none yet have been the column or rack


Racks do go stiff if the front wheels get a side hit

Tie rods do wear, but never been a problem on my cars

It's not really a weak area of the car, like say the clutch slave cylinder

Early puntos did use to fail with dry joints that's now been well sorted

You don't want damp, condensation in the car, check under the carper in the boot and duck bills

Don't let cold water hit the hot alternator if possible, if you don't don't have aircon check the belt tension, use the car regularly, they don't like sitting. The battery will die very quickly unless kept charged up

 

[leongrey99]

Yep we learnt a lot in the last 5 years

What use to be a replement column or torque sensor now get repaired without major costs

The only slightly annoying thing is there isn't one simple answer and reading the codes is misleading

I like the proportional weight of the EPS

Light when parking and firms up when moving

They will probably limited to the 155 80 R13, the more grip there is the more annoying it will become at low speed


Whoops I see @bugsymike wrote the same thing while I was writing this

What is the fix for people experiencing power steering issues?? I have intermittent failure and assume it to be the unit not getting enough power

 

[koalar]

What is the fix for people experiencing power steering issues?? I have intermittent failure and assume it to be the unit not getting enough power

Nobody can say change this or its that

There are multi faults with the same symptoms

Truly intermittent, loss of power steering with the red EPS light coming on isn't usally serious

Swapping the battery for a known good is the normal first step

Unlike engine codes reading the EPS code will normally not get you anywhere

EPS electric power steering faults | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

First don't panic, the vast majority of power steering faults are normally simple and cheap fixes especially if it starts failing mainly in your winter months But unfortunately nobody can say change this or do that and it fix it. A lot of different faults will cause the same symptoms or the...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[jrkitching]

What is the fix for people experiencing power steering issues?? I have intermittent failure and assume it to be the unit not getting enough power

Usually, but not always, that assumption is correct.

So first check the battery condition, the electrical connections and the earthing points.

Before we understood the importance of having sound electrical connections (the motor draws a lot of current), garages (including franchised dealers) carried out a lot of unnecessary column replacements.

In a very small percentage of cases, the problem is caused by a failing torque sensor in the steering column. In these small number of cases, it may be necessary to either replace the torque sensor or fit a replacement or refurbished column motor assembly.

This is one company which can refurbish a failing column assembly, but remember they are in the business of selling this service. They don't fail as often as you might think from looking at their website.

If you have a weak torque sensor and an older car and the problem is very intermittent, you might just choose to live with it.

 

[portland_bill]

There was EU legislation introduced for all cars sometime in 2004, that mandated a minimum force for turning the steering wheel in set conditions. The only way for manufacturers to achieve this was to fit power steering. The legislation was proposed years before, but delayed until electric power steering was proven.
For vehicles registered after a set date, sometime in 2004, removing the power steering would mean that the car no longer met its legal requirements to be used on the road. In the UK, our MOT test will not check for this, only whether a fitted system is working. I doubt any country would notice, but there is a small risk.
As these cars were first produced a little before the legislation, some were made without power steering, but unless some countries had them without, parts will become scarce sooner.